A Fellow of the American Institute of Architects, a Building Biology Environmental Consultant and published author, Paula Baker-Laporte shares what the hack home ventilation is and why you should be concerned about it. Paula reveals the consequences of not having enough ventilation at home and how much fresh air is required. She’ll examine the ways Building Biology differs from conventional wisdom on ventilation.
You’ll learn what ‘breathable’ walls are and if opening windows is enough to get an adequate amount of fresh air. Paula will explore something called an HRV and reveal if there are any downsides to having one; especially in new construction. Finally, Paula shares simple things everyone can today do to assure better air quality; even if you’re not in a position to buy a new home, do extensive renovations, or are in a rental property.
This episode is brought to you by The Building Biology Institute, a non-profit organization that is dedicated to the holistic science that you can embrace in their seminars, courses, certification programs, fact sheets and videos on designing, building, remediating health-supporting structures in harmony with planetary ecology. Join informative thinkers and stay up to date with new research on their Facebook page and find out more and become a member online HERE.
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Ron Beres
This episode of healthy home hacks is sponsored by the building biology Institute to learn more about creating indoor environments that support health and wellness visit their free resources at building biology institute.org.
Narrator
How would you like to improve your health and keep your family safe? If you're listening to the healthy home hacks podcast where we firmly believe enjoying optimal health shouldn't be a luxury, healthy home authorities and husband and wife team Ron and Lisa will help you create a home environment that will level up your health. It's time to hear from the experts. listen in on honest conversations and gain the best tips and advice. If you're ready to dive in and improve your well-being and increase your energy you're in the right place. Alright, here are your hosts, bow biologists, authors, media darlings, vicarious vegans and avocado aficionados. Ron and Elisa Beres.
Ron Beres
I am lucky. Well, it was for 25 years my mother in law and my stepdad, Linda mud gorgeous Big Island of Hawaii. But certainly after at least and I had our tropical ideas there. We voiced across the Pacific Ocean for a visit. Because duh, the person wanted to be there. So, upon arrival, we noticed they had this new fish tank that was joining their open dared ocean viewed breezy living room. And at first glance, it was a blue Oasis with the newest addition of a NEMA like fish. But after day, we started noticing the cute little clownfish was getting nipped out like again and again. It was torturous to watch. So, we said like Free Willy. We got to free this fish. He's clearly being bullied. So, my stepdad big guy got a large white bucket, filled it up a salt water to house the fish overnight, so he wouldn't be in the same tank as those bullies. When I woke up early that morning, I headed to the kitchen to make a smoothie. I am a stepped on this little guy. He had literally jumped over a foot out of the bucket and I kid you not out of the bucket. He landed on the floor and I scream Charlie, that's my father in law, a stout Hawaiian and he came rushing out. The fish wasn't breathing. We thought he was dead. I was like heartbroken. I was like Charlie, he said to stand back. He proceeded to pick up little NEEMO and place them back in the bucket. His large Hawaiian hands held the tiny little name of fish by the tail and started pulling him backward against the water, letting the salt water fill Nino's lungs. I kind of thought he lost his mind this fish is a lifeless, it's not coming back. But suddenly there was movement. The fish started breathing it was moving it was a miracle that only a Hawaiian Kahuna could create. And later, we took MIMO and a little baggie down to the ocean to release him back into his natural habitat. The 20-minute drive felt like hours and we stepped across lava rocks into the tide pools. We felt like this is the perfect spot to allow NEEMO to get his footing. Often and I should say fitting. When he got out into the freshwater. He shimmered so bright and iridescent against the blue sea. We watched him swim out to freedom and back into his natural habitat where he can now thrive.
Many of us can relate to NEEMO know we are so far removed from our natural surroundings, especially those living in densely populated cities or foliage mountains, waterways and greenery are virtually nonexistent. Many modern dwellers today have traded hills for high rises. daffodils for doormen and wood has followed suit or unhealthy living spaces and ultimately sickness, poor health and a dependency on medication just to survive. Someone who understands this well is our special guest. Today we are thrilled to have fellow building biologist, published author and architect Paula Baker Laporte. Paula is a fellow of the American Institute of Architects and a certified building biologist. Her architectural practice is focused on the creation of environmentally sound and health enhancing architecture, working with traditional nature-based systems. Paula also serves as a consultant on the health aspects of building throughout North America. She's been an instructor for the building biology Institute since 2006. Her published books include prescriptions for healthy house, now in its third edition, and two books with her husband and coauthor Robert Laporte eco nest, creating sustainable sanctuaries of clay and timber and the Eco nest home. Welcome to the show Paula
Ron Beres
Paula, what is ventilation? And should we be concerned about it?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Human beings need fresh air. And if our homes aren't allowing enough fresh air to come in, we should be concerned.
Lisa Beres
Paula and her husband build homes and she's sitting in a home that they built. And I'm looking at the gorgeous walls and just the beautiful natural materials that you've used.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Well, our home is we have mass walls. And when you have mass walls, one of the things that people notice is there's an evenness of temperature. So that allows us if we want to, to open doors and windows and ventilate, naturally, any time of the year, because, you know, if you take a conventionally built, stick frame home and did the same, the temperature would either rise or drop or pick up all the humidity or dryness or whatever from outside and make the inside uncomfortable. Very quickly, we have employed many climate-based strategies that allow us to maximize natural ventilation. Having said that, there's also a role for mechanical ventilation in in any modern home.
Lisa Beres
And by mass walls you're talking about, if I recall, like they're very thick, right, they're about a foot thick, right?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
You know, our walls of our home are made out of a straw and clay mixture. But they're, you know, we've worked with many other systems. I've done Adobe homes and autoclaved concrete homes and wood insulated homes. So, there are many different ways to get the Mass Effect. It's just not as common in North America as it is in in Europe, and Asia. And in fact, in the rest of the world.
Lisa Beres
And there's no insulation in your, in your buildings, right? There's no fiberglass?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Well, we always need some sort of insulation in the roofing and the walls themselves the combination of clay and straw or what we call a dynamic insulation. So, it's a combination of insulation and mass that you know, doesn't have the same kind of our values that people are getting with synthetic materials like sprayed foam. Mm hmm.
Lisa Beres
Ron and I had the pleasure of visiting your home when you lived in Santa Fe, New Mexico. And I just remember the feeling the comfort, you know, as soon as you walked in, and we got there in the afternoon, and we stayed till the evening, it even rained that day, you had this big, beautiful fireplace in the middle of the open air room open space and it heated the entire environment. It was so comfortable. You had the meditation room with the gorgeous round window and the sliding Soji doors. I was like I need to live in this house.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
It truly is, for at least most of us in North Americans. And I can remember my first experience of walking into an all-natural home. And it's such an unfamiliar experience to us to have walked from nature, opened the door and walked back into nature. And that is the building biology ideal is not to leave nature behind just because we've come indoors.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, we are so far removed from that. We are we are we live in Orange County. And if you know the Orange County housewives, they some of them live not in our exact neighborhood. But you know, we passed their house and, on our way, down to the beach. One of them Gosh, I forget how big how many square feet the one home was birthed on the hill, 45 35,000 square feet at 25,000 square foot home. And I saw pictures of it as it was being built. I mean, this home has like special Ice Cube makers that make square ice cubes and at a hair salon and elevators, you name it, probably the movie theaters and who knows. But they used pink fiberglass insulation. And I remember seeing that the photos and thinking, wow, you know you've got that much money to build a dream home. And it was like so much about the external and nothing integrated into the material. even going to like a denim insulation or something more natural. It was it was really surprising.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
The happy news is there are many, many ways we can improve any type of home. And the sad news is that most people going into building a home don't know enough to ask for what we know they really need.
Lisa Beres
Right? They're just it's kind of in that system. So, Paula, what happens to a home and the people living in the home if there isn't enough ventilation?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Well, imagine sending your kids to play in a plastic bag.
Ron Beres
Okay,
Lisa Beres
That's not fun.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
You probably wouldn't choose to do that. And yet, essentially, we build houses as if they were a giant plastic bag. We try to block out nature and then we lead in mechanically as much as we think we may need. And it's interesting that ASHRAE the American Society of heating, etc., engineers heating cooling air conditioning engineers has set standards over the years for how much air exchange a home should have. And that number keeps going up, they keep discovering, maybe we need more and more. Now for your single person living in a 25,000 square foot home, you're probably not going to deplete your carbon dioxide in a hurry.
Lisa Beres
If you�re that one person.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
You're okay. If you're living in a compact, tight, very much plastic bag type construction home and you've got four kids, and everyone is showering and you're cooking all the time. And maybe someone has a model plane hobby gluing up in another room, etc. On and on, you better pay a lot of attention because not only are the occupants going to lose health because they don't have enough fresh air. But the building itself needs air exchange so it doesn't get moldy. And as you probably know, mold in in buildings is this serious and huge problem all over the country who all climates zones. Yeah, that's interesting, because I think a lot of people think oh, it's just in the south, or you know, the high humid areas. But also, it takes us a leak or you know, a food source and the right temperature. And it's got a perfect environment for mold. Right. How much is enough Polish? I remember you mentioned actually in your book, I think the first edition, you have four editions, by the way, that is fantastic. Yes, exactly what is in progress? I can't wait.
Ron Beres
Well, I remember something written where it said the average air exchange of a home should be, you know, once every hour. But as of latest and once every five hours is the average air exchange were clean air comes in and out completely right. Is that still the case? What is enough?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
As I was explaining the last example, it depends. And I think the point when we were in the book was that homes used to be very leaky. So, they sucked a lot of air exchange in. That is not an ideal way to get your air exchange. But people were getting enough air. The homes were not particularly comfortable. They were drafty. So, we've made huge advances in how to make homes less drafty. And we really do want to know where the air is coming from. We don't want air leaking in through walls that might have mold in them or have fiberglass insulation that has old formaldehyde in it or mouse droppings or you name it, you want to know where the air is coming from. There's a lot of green building now. And it's very popular and usually those homes are very tight and airtight, which can be a good thing. And in order to compensate and make sure that occupants are getting the right amount of air. They're installing mechanical ventilation. And you may have heard of HRV�s and ERV�s. Can you say what that is an HRV? HRV is a mechanical heat recovery ventilator. So, in it ensures that fresh air is coming into the house and that air is being exhausted out of the house. And it's tempering the outside air with the temperature of the indoor air as they pass in two separate streams in a box. So, it's a way of getting fresh air without the energy penalty of opening windows when it's cold or humid or too hot. And ERV is about the same thing. But it also has a way to capture moisture and exchange it too. So certain environments one is more recommended and other environments the other. But that is the kind of the state-of-the-art way that ventilation is happening in tight conventionally built green buildings that are winning the awards these days. Oh,
Lisa Beres
that's okay. So, with cost wise compared to a traditional HVAC system, how much what percentage higher would one of those be?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Well, it's not necessarily a replacement for H vac. And some h vac systems are designed to bring in fresh air, but it can be a standalone addition to a home or ducted in addition to home, and some of them have a certain amount of filtration to now all of this type of air exchange is based on an idea that the outside air is better than the indoor air. However, I don't know if you experienced, I'm sure you have in the LA area some of the smoke events we've been having on the west coast. Yeah. And so most people who had this kind of filtration had to shut it off because they were just bringing smoke into the house.
Lisa Beres
So, wow we have to rethink that. Someone with a lot of allergies, environmental allergies, that would be an issue unless the filtration system was maximum or you had a really good filtration system a whole house filtration you know to that.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
So, an HRV can be how filtration elements or it can have add-ons for filtration and certainly, you know, I have used them, especially in housing, I work with a lot of people or special environmental needs. So, people who are allergic to what's outside, or have to shelter at home, and need a lot more exchange and filtration, it's a solution I depend on.
Lisa Beres
So, you do you do use that in certain situations
Paula Baker-LaPorte
I do. But there's always unintended consequences or consequences with each piece of non-natural we bring into our lives, I would say that the building biology approach if I could sum it up is create buildings that are self-sufficient, and then bring in technology as an enhancement. Instead, what we see is a lot of a lot of buildings are hooked up to life support. So even if the power went out, we've seen this if the power goes out, and in a place like Phoenix, Arizona, or, you know, somewhere with extreme climate, the houses that are built by conventional construction become uninhabitable.
Lisa Beres
Quickly. Yeah, you can see that guy so that's that we've had blackouts here in California. I'm sure we've all experienced them. And even just a simple quick blackout, you know, you realize like how dependent on these systems that you are, you know, everything and the more and more technologically advanced we get, we're just getting more into that we're so dependent on everything, right? It's Yeah, everything's that computer to on top of that, you know, so everything's based on a computer system
Ron Beres
Real quick question. So, this your straw clay walls of your home, right? These allow the home to breathe better naturally, in a way? What happens when there's heavy amount of smoke in your neighborhood? What happens to the walls of your home in that scenario?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Okay. Well, you brought up two great things that I would love to talk about Ron. And the first one is, this whole term, if I could re name one term that's gotten into the healthy home and building biology, translations from other language, it's the term breathe ability. And when we talk about breathe ability of a wall system, which is a building biology ideal, we're not talking about its ability to exchange air, we're talking about breathe ability in the same way that our skin is a breathable, Oregon, we know we can put a dermal patch on it and take medication into our skin, and our skin for too hot, it can put off, just make water appear from inside of us and create a whole evaporative cooling system over our whole body. If we're too cold, we get goosebumps, and our hair stands on. And so, we get a whole insulation pocket around our body. Ideally, we would want our building envelope to be breathable and the way our skin is breathable, to be interacting with nature on our own terms. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Yeah, description.
Ron Beres
I was just so impressed the first time I saw your home and Lisa mentioned this earlier in New Mexico, I couldn't get past the concept of like that was clay straw. And I know you were in a climate that probably is more conducive. And that probably plays a big factor into making that kind of home because you're in a dry climate area doesn't rain that often. But you certainly had a level of protection because of the roofing that it created just the perfect dwelling for you and your husband.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Right? The big secret that no one's talking about is if you go back 100 or 150 years ago, every single region in this country, along with the rest of the world, knew how to build for their existing climate. So, they were self-sufficient because there was no technology to tap into to, you know, not a Luddite. Technology is allowing us to have this conversation at a distance. And technology has allowed us to become more comfortable in our homes. But at what expense?
Lisa Beres
Yeah, if we can't, like just like getting toxins out of our body, we need that we need those toxins getting out of our home, too. So, circling back with ventilation, how does building biology differ from conventional wisdom ventilation? We touched upon that, obviously, the mechanical ventilation, but is there anything else that you want to add to that?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Oh, sure. Our needs for ventilation come from many different things. You know, we need mechanical ventilation. If a home doesn't allow for cross ventilation for putting windows in the right places, a home needs more mechanical input if it's not designed for the climate. For example, the home we saw in New Mexico, it had what we call a sun bump that was inset from the edge of the roof just the right amount to take in winter sun and block summer sun because we're working with the angles and the rest of the building had a four foot overhang which is typical for us. That's like having a great big sun or rain hat. Mm hmm. Instead of wearing a plastic green coat.
Lisa Beres
Right I remember See I remember us you showing us that and talking about the roof and because you did get snow right in that area, we're in in New Mexico. And that even with the snow and all that moisture, that four-foot overhang prevented the buildup of moisture on the wall enough just by that forest It was pretty amazing.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yeah. And then the wall itself, when you have what Ron was calling breathable materials, let's call it a vapor open system. It's made with materials like clay, that can absorb many times their weight and moisture, suck away from wood or anything that might be vulnerable, hold it, and then balance with the natural environment when the environment gets drier, it releases that. So, you can do a vapor open system, that's very, very durable. But it has to be done with materials that have this ability to work with whatever nature can throw at it. Yeah, that's
Lisa Beres
So interesting. I, you know, it'd be nice. Can you just tell us like general regions of the country what building materials work best in each? So north, Northern, Southern, Eastern Western, just kind of a general overview.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
First of all, you know, we want insulation in mass, insulation and mass play a role in every region, but they play a different role. In an area like Santa Fe, when you have enough mass in the wall, it can help condition the building very comfortably. Because at that high altitude, it gets cold at night, even in the summer, and it's dry all year. And in the winter, we get a lot of sun, so the walls act like a battery. And so, at night, in the summer, they take on the cooler temperatures, but it takes several hours for it to make its way through the wall. So, then it helps cool the wall during the day. And then it heats up during the day. And it allows it to have a steady not too cold temperature at night. Well, it's so it's bringing its warmth in while it's cooling busy cooling off for the next day. So that kind of use of mass works very, very well in a high altitude, hot, you know, mixed climate, a lot of mass and wall is not a good strategy. In Alaska. Yeah. And there, you want a lot of, you know, a lot more insulation in the balance, but the mass wall can still be helpful in maintaining heat, if you're creating the right kind of heat in the house, if you're creating a radiant heat source, it will store in a mass wall. So, you can also use mass in a very, very cold climate to be of great benefit. In fact, we've actually built natural homes in 17 states, four provinces, etc. So, in a wide variety of climates with the light straw clay technique, it's a wet technique, and it needs to dry. So, doing it in a very wet climate without a very good strategy in place to get it initially dried, is not advised. But once it's dry, it has tremendous capacity to store. So back to ventilation, you know, that's a good accompaniment to ventilation to natural ventilation is having natural walls that have a lot of storage capacity.
Lisa Beres
Is the reason that we just don't see more of this type of building is cost? You know, I know here in Orange County, I mean, they just build these communities like oh, Polly, you know, you've seen them. I mean, they just put them up in a couple weeks and you've got like, all of a sudden, these communities appearing, there is much demand. There's so much demand for housing insurance, they churn these houses like insane, insanely fast and, you know, as probably as cheap as they can make them is that really part of the issue is the cost that just would be unfeasible especially here in California?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Well, I can tell you a little story I had when we first did our first home together in Santa Fe, a developer came by and he was very impressed. He said, Well, how much does this cost. And at that time, you know, obviously it costs more to build a handcrafted mass wall house, it's going to give you the service I said all about $1 per square foot per year, because this house is going to last for several hundred years, pricing was different there. And he thought that was a funniest thing he'd ever heard. Think about not just initial costs, get your money and get your money out but costs for the throughout the life of the building. Now in Europe, when people used to stay put and, you know, to found a cornerstone of a home, you knew you were passing on to your family for generations and generations. And just as a matter of national pride. If we wanted to create a future of good housing stock for a country that would last our citizens for generations, we wouldn't be judging everything in terms of cost per square foot of initial cost to build and we would have a different mindset and we'd build differently.
Lisa Beres
I love that. That's so true. I think rings true with health, right? I mean, we're vegan, we eat primarily organic. And when you try to educate someone who's not doing that, the first thing you know, a lot of them will say is Oh, it's too expensive. It's too expensive to buy organic. And then you're thinking well, how much do people spend when they get an illness when they get diagnosed with cancer or any kind of illness like that they'll anything they'll take out all their savings, they'll mortgage, their home, whatever they have to do to get Healthy, right as same thing, right? prioritizing parent as realizing it's an investment in you. It's investment in your health, your children, our planet, and all of that. It's just all full circle.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yes. And another part of this paradigm that you've brought up is, how much space Do I really need to be happy? Yeah. And often people will come in, you know, and there's three things budget cost, quality, and for our health, the things, the quality we need to add, so will be healthy, for me is non-negotiable. If that's not also a client's first priority, then they're not my client, they should find someone more like minded to work with. So, then we just have costs and size are the two flexible parameters. And if someone is on a budget, one of the things that I really enjoy doing is someone is showing someone how they can get quality space and less square footage than they thought they might need.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, quality over quantity.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Same with organic food people eat far too, you know, someone is clearly eating too much and then says organic food is too expensive. You might have him look. They're consuming air, right? Same with houses. Yeah,
Lisa Beres
Yeah. I love that. Well, if you are listening and enjoying this show, this has been brought to you by the building biology Institute. They are a nonprofit organization that's dedicated to the holistic science that you can embrace, and their seminars, courses or certification programs. And on their website, they have fact sheets and videos on designing, building and remediating health supporting structures in harmony with the planetary ecology.
Ron Beres
To find out more and become a member, go to building biology institute.org, once again, building biology institute.org.
Lisa Beres
And we are here with Paula Baker Laporte, architect and fellow building biology, environmental consultant, among other things, Paul is actually a teacher at the Institute. And we have known her for years and years. And she's just a wealth of knowledge. And we're picking up with ventilation in our homes and natural building.
Ron Beres
Paula, a great segue. So, can I get the ventilation that I need for my home? By just opening the windows?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
It depends on while in Los Angeles, theoretically, you could do that because of the climate, and perhaps not because of the pollution. But it really depends on what you're bringing in from the outdoors as well. So, what do we do and its really smoky outside, we have recently installed a ventilation system in our house with souped up filtration so that when we do have a smoke event, we can maintain our health?
Lisa Beres
Guys, I know LA. I mean, normally the EPA statistic of indoor air is two to five times more polluted than the outdoor air isn't always true on a polluted day and a smoggy day in LA. And then you've like we talked earlier about people with allergies, they can't open their windows on certain days, high allergy days and things like that. So yeah, we're kind of in a flux, if you're, you know, in that situation, so we have a lot of air purifiers throughout our home. You know, we don't have a whole house filtration but we do use portable air purifiers on every floor we have a three-story townhouse that we live in, not a natural built house yet. We are all hardwired though Paula, we got a lot of things going just not the walls. So, our walls, would you call they're not breathable, or would you call like a stick built home semi breathable, and do you still need ventilation if you have breathable walls?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yes, you still need ventilation because the walls shouldn't should not be counted on to get your air exchange just like our skin. Although it does exchange with the environment, we'd be in trouble if we didn't have noses and mouths for the major air exchange in the body. And so, the same is true of our homes or windows in a natural sense or windows are the lungs of the or the breathing organism for the body that openings and then at times now we need life support beyond that. And all homes whether natural or not need to have the ability to remove pollution and pollution comes in the form of you know when we bathe or shower all of that extra vapor. If you're seeing any condensation on your Windows at any time during the year. There's too much vapor in the home. It's always hard for the building biology students and it was hard for me to understand at first that it can be pouring rain outside on a cold day. And if you open your windows. Have you ever done that you don't have a shower your bathrooms all mirrors all fogged up and it's cold and rainy outside and you open your window and the all of the water vapor goes away? Yeah, you would think You're bringing in more humid air. But in fact, because it's cold, when it gets into the house and expands, it has more capacity to take those shirts out of the air. Oh, interesting.
Ron Beres
Well, you Paula, you mentioned earlier you talked about HRV Is there anything any more information you can provide us around the mechanics of that?
Lisa Beres
Say someone who actually grew up in a home without one but didn't have any problems?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
You two are younger than me. But most of homes in my day, we didn't have any cooling. We lived in Toronto, it got cold in the winter. And in the mornings, there'd be a ribbon of ice on the inside of the windows, because we didn't have double pane glass.
Ron Beres
Wow, your tough.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
I�m Canadian. You know, we lived under different circumstances, and that those homes, really, they weren't very airtight. We got fresh air exchange, maybe in ways we didn't want it. But there was enough air running through it, we didn't need as much technical assistance. So, a properly built home nowadays, probably does need technical assistance unless it's very consciously built as a natural home in a good climate. Even though you're in Los Angeles, and I'm in a drier part of Oregon, our climates are simple compared to what most of the country Yeah, faces. So, in Florida, where it's hot and humid or so, even worse, in climates, where it's horrible and cold all winter, and then horrible and humid all summer and hot. Yeah.
Lisa Beres
So, it's funny, something we get asked a lot is, you know, are older homes, more toxic or less toxic than newer homes. The perception is that older homes are more toxic. But I think because of this airflow that you had in older drafty homes, you know, you did have these toxins getting out more than you do today. In the green, tightly sealed buildings,
Paula Baker-LaPorte
I see different kinds of problems in older homes and newer homes. Mm hmm. So typically, in an old to buy an older home, you know, you're going to have some pesticide residue, there may be lead paint, there may be a specialist somewhere. And nature has had its time to work its way through every inefficiency and insufficient detail in that home so that it's probably created mold or insect infestations or something along the way. So, you have all of that set of problems. Yeah, newer homes unless they're carefully built with good chemistry, you're going to have new chemical load, and new moisture issues from new construction. People rarely take into account that most new buildings or wet buildings in need to dry out. And that's a common problem.
Lisa Beres
Mm hmm. That they're because they're always in a hurry, right? There's just always a deadline. So, if they get like a rainstorm during is that the issue? If it rains during the construction, they just throw it up and say, Oh, well.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
So, you know, every time we use concrete, there's a lot of water in concrete, and it takes longer than you know, people think. Concrete dries out in 28 days, it reaches full strength.
Ron Beres
Paula, Sophie's Choice, you have to pick one, you're very diplomatic. You have to choose. Would you rather go with? Do you want new or old?
Lisa Beres
That mold? You want pesticides in your carpet or mold in your walls? I'll take neither.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
That's not saying hey, every new home is moldy. I would look for a home with certain characteristics, whether it was new or old. Where do we see failures, often in basements and crawl spaces? In fact, I worked on a project in Los Angeles where they could only build a certain size home. It was a demand suffocation. I think it was called. My wife saw that only so much of the home could be above ground. And since the properties are so expensive, they needed to build a basement to get some of the rooms that are the size home they want. So, it's the problems are built in. So, there can be good old homes and there could be good new homes.
Ron Beres
You still didn't pick Paula. That's okay. We're going to let you pass on that one to pass on/
Lisa Beres
A good answer. Well, Ron, what was the study from the Silent Spring Institute, they found DDT pesticide that's been banned. 40 years ago.
Ron Beres
They found it in 550 homes. I think this was in upstate New York area.
Lisa Beres
Two thirds of the home had DDT still in the remnants. Was that what it was later? Yeah, two thirds of the two thirds of the home's carpet 30 plus years later, still had remnants of DDT pesticide in the carpet. Not to go down a tangent of that. But you know, you think about babies on the floor and pets on the floor. And, you know, you're tracking your shoes and all of that. So,
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yeah, that's a perfect example of something we've banned, but it's still amongst us and you definitely have a higher chance of finding it in an older home.
Lisa Beres
Right? DDT is these persistent chemicals. It's just crazy. I know the University of Arizona, my alma mater, did a study on dust in the home and found that 60% of the dust is tracked in from the bottom of our shoes. And what was prominent in the dust was led DDT, an arsenic, then that's like, that was a recent study. So, the fact that we're still we're still tracking that into our homes is crazy.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
So, the clearly obvious first piece of very valuable, completely free advice to give anyone is make your home and no shoes home.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, we do it unless we're going out somewhere dressy and I have heels on and my dress is too long. I have an exception. No, but it's true. I have my indoor flip flops. So, what I do is I slip out of my shoes living in the garage, and then I just put on my indoor flip flops as I like to have flip flops on when I'm walking around the house. I don't wash my floors every day. So, I don't want to get Do you have radiant heating? Did you have radiant heating in your flooring? in New Mexico?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yes, we always put radiant heating in we rarely use it.
Lisa Beres
Oh, you do? Okay. It's just for those super cold days.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
It�s for whoever buys the house next?
Ron Beres
What are the downsides to installing an HRV or an ERV?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
We've looked into many, many different brands. And some of the things you'll find is a cardboard core. So, paper core. So right in the core where the heat exchange in energy exchange is happening, there's mold prone materials. What we've also found in a lot of the course is that biocides are used because of the propensity for them to potentially get moldy. So that's one issue. What are the ducks made out of? And how are they hooked up? Because there can be problems with what's in ductwork? What's used in all the materials. When HRV�s came first came out, I thought, well, this is very interesting. And I called up one of the manufacturers. And I said, Well, okay, you're so you're dependent on this ventilation system, what if it breaks and you don't know it? And he said, Oh, you'd know it. I said, Well, how would you know, and he said, because you wouldn't hear it anymore. And you can get some very quiet ones now. But I would contend that the you know, that sound of sitting beside a Brook, and waters just the nature has a way of making the sound of water and it just puts your whole body at ease and adds to that level of delight and relaxation that you're feeling. Well consider what we do with all the mechanics we're surrounded with. We're surrounded by repetitive mechanical noise. And that's a stressor. Yeah, it's just as sound in nature relaxes us. Sound by machines indoors are stressor, same as unnatural color. Same as you know, there's nothing that beats the formula of fresh air in nature and its components. And I don't believe that we're yet smart enough to have dissected all of that. It's like, again, let's take a food analogy. You know, that NPK thing that you buy a fertilizer, and it will say its mix of those three ingredients. And at one point, we thought we were so clever that we figured out the only three ingredients that nature needs to grow wholesome food. And then we began to realize or many people that nature and the way it grows things is much more complex than adding three component fertilizers there's all kinds of beneficial organisms that make for healthier, better and more vibrant food. So even if we don't understand the science behind every soil organism, we can make the assumption that we may get better food in working with nature than in working against nature by spraying the food and putting artificial fertilizers on it.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, this roundup and glyphosate and all the pesticides it's just the GMOs it's not even food anymore. Right Frankenfood.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yeah, so I want to bring that back to ventilation. So we've got this perfect formula working out there in nature and we think that we can take it through all this machinery and spit it out the other end and that it's going to maintain all those qualities the those subtle qualities I on levels and you know, the various components that make up fresh air. I don't think through quite the same we don't feel quite the same, do we?
Lisa Beres
It's amazing. We have been out so much more Ron and I walking out in nature since Coronavirus. Because we you know used to go to the gym. That was our workout and yeah, we would go out to the beach or whatever on the weekends. But you know, we were forced to do our daily exercise outside and it's been amazing. It's funny that we weren't doing it because we live in such a beautiful era we pay to live here. We don't we're not too far from the ocean and we've discovered these gorgeous hikes and these trails and no matter what's happening in the day, when we go out for the walk, it just lifts your whole mood your entire mood changes. Okay, so what sort of wrap things up with a final question. And for listeners who are saying, gosh, this all sounds great, Paula. But what can I do today to improve my air quality in my home, and especially if I'm in a position where I can't buy a new home, I can't do an extensive renovation? Or maybe I even live in a rental and I can't do anything like, permanent.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
So, the good news is that there are many, many things you can do. And every change is worthwhile. That's what building biology teaches us so that any positive changes worthwhile. The first thing you can do is most people have fans, stove, hoods, etc. But don't use them when they should be. So, as I said before, if you take a shower and you see condensation on any surface, you need to get the moisture out of the bathroom. So, you don't create a mold problem for yourself. Use the fan, right or if you have a window, and that works, use the window. If you're cooking, get rid of the cooking odors. And if you turn on a fan, remember it's sucking air out of your house. Nature abhors a vacuum. So, where's the replacement air going to come from? Either you tell it where to get that replacement air or it'll find it and you can tell it the way to tell it is to crack a little window. If you're cooking in the kitchen, turn on your fan. And you don't have fresh air replacement which most homes by far do not crack a window while you've got that going. Huh? How do you know when stimulated? You won't smell the food anymore?
Ron Beres
Like the food part? What if you want to smell the food? What if you want that salmon?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
I know I want the salmon while I'm eating? I don't want it well; I'm trying to eat yogurt in the morning.
Ron Beres
Okay, okay.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yeah, no, no, no salmon now, after the fact just isn't a good smell. So, if you put your vent on your stove vent, and you don't open the window, what happens? Depends what air is pretty smart like water, and it'll find the path of least resistance. If that path of least resistance happens to be sucking, say humid outdoor air through an electrical outlet and into your home through your dirty walls that have DDT in them. That's where you'll be getting your replacement there. Whether you like it or not, oh, gotcha. If you open a little window, it's going to say, Oh, this is easier. And it's going to come in there.
Lisa Beres
I gotcha. Okay, so as an architect, is the code for bathrooms, you either have a fan or a window, is that the code?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yes. And in, you know, in different places, they may insist on mechanical even if there is a natural, which I always do anyhow, because sometimes either you can open a window, or you're just the air outside is, you know, the wind's blowing in the wrong way. So, having that kind of assistance is a positive step forward, always.
Lisa Beres
And people have mold. I mean, that's a common, and obviously, there's mildew and then there's mold. But that's so common in the bathroom, you know, around the tub area, you know, battling with that. And I think you're right, I think people aren't really realizing the importance of just ventilating that after a hot shower. And here's some more pointers, it depends what's in the house. If you have a lot of toxins in the house, you need more ventilation to dilute it. So, what are you bringing in in terms of your cleaning products, using air fresheners or anything like that? So, don't bring the toxins into the house, please stop bringing toxins into your home air fresheners do not fresh in your air, they do not clean your air? They do not. they pollute your air, generally, they add more chemicals to your air. And any more tips there.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
There are standalone filters that are excellent. And will really make a difference in the air quality in your home. Mm hmm. Absolutely.
Lisa Beres
We have lists of those on our website, I we've tested. Every major brand, we've had every major brand. And it's kind of like you get what you pay for when it comes to air purification. But going back to what you said don't look at it as the upfront cost. Look at it as an investment in your health and in your future. Now, would there ever be a possibility of building a clay straw? Tiny Home? Why not? Yeah, I was thinking about that while we were talking because you were talking about how much space. Do we really need? You know, you realize this when you move right? When you move and you move into your new place and nothing's unpacked and you're like, wow, I'm fully functioning with this one box. You know, it always happens and you're like, what is all the other stuff that I have? Do I really need it? So, the tiny house movement is really amazing. It's giving people financial freedom. And I have seen some sustainable eco-friendly companies. I think escape homes. I don't know if you're familiar with them escape homes, they build healthy, sustainable, Tiny Homes, home and RV and vacation homes. They're pretty great.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
One of the things we have really Robert has developed is what we call the BEN. It's a backyard eco nest because how many people need an extra room for something. And why not just have a beautiful, natural, modest sanctuary to do whatever that is massage studio yoga practice office, oh, it would be built on site, right. It's a prefabricated with the kinds of materials that we use. So, the natural wall panel and timber I think that there's probably something posted on our website, we did put it out. So, if anyone's interested, they can just email us and we'll put them on our mailing list to EcoNestHomes.com. Eco Nest homes.com.com we, if you just Google it, it should come up along with diaper company.
Ron Beres
Fun Facts about Paul. So, Paul, you walk the walk literally you create healthy, sustainable homes. But you also grow your own food, right?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yes, that's my sanity,
Ron Beres
That your sanity. But most people probably don't know this about you at one time. You had your own food truck.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, your own food truck.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
When I finished architecture school, a long, long time ago and worked in the field for about a year became totally disillusioned. And I decided to pursue my other love, which was food. So, myself and a girlfriend opened our business called Moveable Feast, and we had a purple catering van, where we did nuclear rallies and all the stuff that was around there and we do it. So, we were Toronto's only health food catering van. Wow. And that was fun. But then I got serious about architecture again and have never opened another food business that have remained a dedicated health foodie.
Lisa Beres
There's something about growing your own food and the taste right the way it tastes.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
You don't have to take vitamins you feed it to your plants and eat the plants. So, make sure they're getting their nutrition.
Lisa Beres
Wow, that is so full circle. No circle moment. Well, thank you. I hope you we have loved having you Paula, thank you for sharing your wisdom and your knowledge and for being a part of the building biology Institute, which you can go to and visit at building biology institute.org hopefully you guys have enjoyed the show as much as we'd have. Be sure to tune in next week to find out what the heck is going on in your home. I will see you guys next week. Bye bye.
Narrator
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Ron Beres
This episode of healthy home hacks is sponsored by the building biology Institute to learn more about creating indoor environments that support health and wellness visit their free resources at building biology institute.org.
Narrator
How would you like to improve your health and keep your family safe? If you're listening to the healthy home hacks podcast where we firmly believe enjoying optimal health shouldn't be a luxury, healthy home authorities and husband and wife team Ron and Lisa will help you create a home environment that will level up your health. It's time to hear from the experts. listen in on honest conversations and gain the best tips and advice. If you're ready to dive in and improve your well-being and increase your energy you're in the right place. Alright, here are your hosts, bow biologists, authors, media darlings, vicarious vegans and avocado aficionados. Ron and Elisa Beres.
Ron Beres
I am lucky. Well, it was for 25 years my mother in law and my stepdad, Linda mud gorgeous Big Island of Hawaii. But certainly after at least and I had our tropical ideas there. We voiced across the Pacific Ocean for a visit. Because duh, the person wanted to be there. So, upon arrival, we noticed they had this new fish tank that was joining their open dared ocean viewed breezy living room. And at first glance, it was a blue Oasis with the newest addition of a NEMA like fish. But after day, we started noticing the cute little clownfish was getting nipped out like again and again. It was torturous to watch. So, we said like Free Willy. We got to free this fish. He's clearly being bullied. So, my stepdad big guy got a large white bucket, filled it up a salt water to house the fish overnight, so he wouldn't be in the same tank as those bullies. When I woke up early that morning, I headed to the kitchen to make a smoothie. I am a stepped on this little guy. He had literally jumped over a foot out of the bucket and I kid you not out of the bucket. He landed on the floor and I scream Charlie, that's my father in law, a stout Hawaiian and he came rushing out. The fish wasn't breathing. We thought he was dead. I was like heartbroken. I was like Charlie, he said to stand back. He proceeded to pick up little NEEMO and place them back in the bucket. His large Hawaiian hands held the tiny little name of fish by the tail and started pulling him backward against the water, letting the salt water fill Nino's lungs. I kind of thought he lost his mind this fish is a lifeless, it's not coming back. But suddenly there was movement. The fish started breathing it was moving it was a miracle that only a Hawaiian Kahuna could create. And later, we took MIMO and a little baggie down to the ocean to release him back into his natural habitat. The 20-minute drive felt like hours and we stepped across lava rocks into the tide pools. We felt like this is the perfect spot to allow NEEMO to get his footing. Often and I should say fitting. When he got out into the freshwater. He shimmered so bright and iridescent against the blue sea. We watched him swim out to freedom and back into his natural habitat where he can now thrive.
Many of us can relate to NEEMO know we are so far removed from our natural surroundings, especially those living in densely populated cities or foliage mountains, waterways and greenery are virtually nonexistent. Many modern dwellers today have traded hills for high rises. daffodils for doormen and wood has followed suit or unhealthy living spaces and ultimately sickness, poor health and a dependency on medication just to survive. Someone who understands this well is our special guest. Today we are thrilled to have fellow building biologist, published author and architect Paula Baker Laporte. Paula is a fellow of the American Institute of Architects and a certified building biologist. Her architectural practice is focused on the creation of environmentally sound and health enhancing architecture, working with traditional nature-based systems. Paula also serves as a consultant on the health aspects of building throughout North America. She's been an instructor for the building biology Institute since 2006. Her published books include prescriptions for healthy house, now in its third edition, and two books with her husband and coauthor Robert Laporte eco nest, creating sustainable sanctuaries of clay and timber and the Eco nest home. Welcome to the show Paula
Ron Beres
Paula, what is ventilation? And should we be concerned about it?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Human beings need fresh air. And if our homes aren't allowing enough fresh air to come in, we should be concerned.
Lisa Beres
Paula and her husband build homes and she's sitting in a home that they built. And I'm looking at the gorgeous walls and just the beautiful natural materials that you've used.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Well, our home is we have mass walls. And when you have mass walls, one of the things that people notice is there's an evenness of temperature. So that allows us if we want to, to open doors and windows and ventilate, naturally, any time of the year, because, you know, if you take a conventionally built, stick frame home and did the same, the temperature would either rise or drop or pick up all the humidity or dryness or whatever from outside and make the inside uncomfortable. Very quickly, we have employed many climate-based strategies that allow us to maximize natural ventilation. Having said that, there's also a role for mechanical ventilation in in any modern home.
Lisa Beres
And by mass walls you're talking about, if I recall, like they're very thick, right, they're about a foot thick, right?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
You know, our walls of our home are made out of a straw and clay mixture. But they're, you know, we've worked with many other systems. I've done Adobe homes and autoclaved concrete homes and wood insulated homes. So, there are many different ways to get the Mass Effect. It's just not as common in North America as it is in in Europe, and Asia. And in fact, in the rest of the world.
Lisa Beres
And there's no insulation in your, in your buildings, right? There's no fiberglass?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Well, we always need some sort of insulation in the roofing and the walls themselves the combination of clay and straw or what we call a dynamic insulation. So, it's a combination of insulation and mass that you know, doesn't have the same kind of our values that people are getting with synthetic materials like sprayed foam. Mm hmm.
Lisa Beres
Ron and I had the pleasure of visiting your home when you lived in Santa Fe, New Mexico. And I just remember the feeling the comfort, you know, as soon as you walked in, and we got there in the afternoon, and we stayed till the evening, it even rained that day, you had this big, beautiful fireplace in the middle of the open air room open space and it heated the entire environment. It was so comfortable. You had the meditation room with the gorgeous round window and the sliding Soji doors. I was like I need to live in this house.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
It truly is, for at least most of us in North Americans. And I can remember my first experience of walking into an all-natural home. And it's such an unfamiliar experience to us to have walked from nature, opened the door and walked back into nature. And that is the building biology ideal is not to leave nature behind just because we've come indoors.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, we are so far removed from that. We are we are we live in Orange County. And if you know the Orange County housewives, they some of them live not in our exact neighborhood. But you know, we passed their house and, on our way, down to the beach. One of them Gosh, I forget how big how many square feet the one home was birthed on the hill, 45 35,000 square feet at 25,000 square foot home. And I saw pictures of it as it was being built. I mean, this home has like special Ice Cube makers that make square ice cubes and at a hair salon and elevators, you name it, probably the movie theaters and who knows. But they used pink fiberglass insulation. And I remember seeing that the photos and thinking, wow, you know you've got that much money to build a dream home. And it was like so much about the external and nothing integrated into the material. even going to like a denim insulation or something more natural. It was it was really surprising.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
The happy news is there are many, many ways we can improve any type of home. And the sad news is that most people going into building a home don't know enough to ask for what we know they really need.
Lisa Beres
Right? They're just it's kind of in that system. So, Paula, what happens to a home and the people living in the home if there isn't enough ventilation?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Well, imagine sending your kids to play in a plastic bag.
Ron Beres
Okay,
Lisa Beres
That's not fun.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
You probably wouldn't choose to do that. And yet, essentially, we build houses as if they were a giant plastic bag. We try to block out nature and then we lead in mechanically as much as we think we may need. And it's interesting that ASHRAE the American Society of heating, etc., engineers heating cooling air conditioning engineers has set standards over the years for how much air exchange a home should have. And that number keeps going up, they keep discovering, maybe we need more and more. Now for your single person living in a 25,000 square foot home, you're probably not going to deplete your carbon dioxide in a hurry.
Lisa Beres
If you�re that one person.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
You're okay. If you're living in a compact, tight, very much plastic bag type construction home and you've got four kids, and everyone is showering and you're cooking all the time. And maybe someone has a model plane hobby gluing up in another room, etc. On and on, you better pay a lot of attention because not only are the occupants going to lose health because they don't have enough fresh air. But the building itself needs air exchange so it doesn't get moldy. And as you probably know, mold in in buildings is this serious and huge problem all over the country who all climates zones. Yeah, that's interesting, because I think a lot of people think oh, it's just in the south, or you know, the high humid areas. But also, it takes us a leak or you know, a food source and the right temperature. And it's got a perfect environment for mold. Right. How much is enough Polish? I remember you mentioned actually in your book, I think the first edition, you have four editions, by the way, that is fantastic. Yes, exactly what is in progress? I can't wait.
Ron Beres
Well, I remember something written where it said the average air exchange of a home should be, you know, once every hour. But as of latest and once every five hours is the average air exchange were clean air comes in and out completely right. Is that still the case? What is enough?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
As I was explaining the last example, it depends. And I think the point when we were in the book was that homes used to be very leaky. So, they sucked a lot of air exchange in. That is not an ideal way to get your air exchange. But people were getting enough air. The homes were not particularly comfortable. They were drafty. So, we've made huge advances in how to make homes less drafty. And we really do want to know where the air is coming from. We don't want air leaking in through walls that might have mold in them or have fiberglass insulation that has old formaldehyde in it or mouse droppings or you name it, you want to know where the air is coming from. There's a lot of green building now. And it's very popular and usually those homes are very tight and airtight, which can be a good thing. And in order to compensate and make sure that occupants are getting the right amount of air. They're installing mechanical ventilation. And you may have heard of HRV�s and ERV�s. Can you say what that is an HRV? HRV is a mechanical heat recovery ventilator. So, in it ensures that fresh air is coming into the house and that air is being exhausted out of the house. And it's tempering the outside air with the temperature of the indoor air as they pass in two separate streams in a box. So, it's a way of getting fresh air without the energy penalty of opening windows when it's cold or humid or too hot. And ERV is about the same thing. But it also has a way to capture moisture and exchange it too. So certain environments one is more recommended and other environments the other. But that is the kind of the state-of-the-art way that ventilation is happening in tight conventionally built green buildings that are winning the awards these days. Oh,
Lisa Beres
that's okay. So, with cost wise compared to a traditional HVAC system, how much what percentage higher would one of those be?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Well, it's not necessarily a replacement for H vac. And some h vac systems are designed to bring in fresh air, but it can be a standalone addition to a home or ducted in addition to home, and some of them have a certain amount of filtration to now all of this type of air exchange is based on an idea that the outside air is better than the indoor air. However, I don't know if you experienced, I'm sure you have in the LA area some of the smoke events we've been having on the west coast. Yeah. And so most people who had this kind of filtration had to shut it off because they were just bringing smoke into the house.
Lisa Beres
So, wow we have to rethink that. Someone with a lot of allergies, environmental allergies, that would be an issue unless the filtration system was maximum or you had a really good filtration system a whole house filtration you know to that.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
So, an HRV can be how filtration elements or it can have add-ons for filtration and certainly, you know, I have used them, especially in housing, I work with a lot of people or special environmental needs. So, people who are allergic to what's outside, or have to shelter at home, and need a lot more exchange and filtration, it's a solution I depend on.
Lisa Beres
So, you do you do use that in certain situations
Paula Baker-LaPorte
I do. But there's always unintended consequences or consequences with each piece of non-natural we bring into our lives, I would say that the building biology approach if I could sum it up is create buildings that are self-sufficient, and then bring in technology as an enhancement. Instead, what we see is a lot of a lot of buildings are hooked up to life support. So even if the power went out, we've seen this if the power goes out, and in a place like Phoenix, Arizona, or, you know, somewhere with extreme climate, the houses that are built by conventional construction become uninhabitable.
Lisa Beres
Quickly. Yeah, you can see that guy so that's that we've had blackouts here in California. I'm sure we've all experienced them. And even just a simple quick blackout, you know, you realize like how dependent on these systems that you are, you know, everything and the more and more technologically advanced we get, we're just getting more into that we're so dependent on everything, right? It's Yeah, everything's that computer to on top of that, you know, so everything's based on a computer system
Ron Beres
Real quick question. So, this your straw clay walls of your home, right? These allow the home to breathe better naturally, in a way? What happens when there's heavy amount of smoke in your neighborhood? What happens to the walls of your home in that scenario?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Okay. Well, you brought up two great things that I would love to talk about Ron. And the first one is, this whole term, if I could re name one term that's gotten into the healthy home and building biology, translations from other language, it's the term breathe ability. And when we talk about breathe ability of a wall system, which is a building biology ideal, we're not talking about its ability to exchange air, we're talking about breathe ability in the same way that our skin is a breathable, Oregon, we know we can put a dermal patch on it and take medication into our skin, and our skin for too hot, it can put off, just make water appear from inside of us and create a whole evaporative cooling system over our whole body. If we're too cold, we get goosebumps, and our hair stands on. And so, we get a whole insulation pocket around our body. Ideally, we would want our building envelope to be breathable and the way our skin is breathable, to be interacting with nature on our own terms. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Yeah, description.
Ron Beres
I was just so impressed the first time I saw your home and Lisa mentioned this earlier in New Mexico, I couldn't get past the concept of like that was clay straw. And I know you were in a climate that probably is more conducive. And that probably plays a big factor into making that kind of home because you're in a dry climate area doesn't rain that often. But you certainly had a level of protection because of the roofing that it created just the perfect dwelling for you and your husband.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Right? The big secret that no one's talking about is if you go back 100 or 150 years ago, every single region in this country, along with the rest of the world, knew how to build for their existing climate. So, they were self-sufficient because there was no technology to tap into to, you know, not a Luddite. Technology is allowing us to have this conversation at a distance. And technology has allowed us to become more comfortable in our homes. But at what expense?
Lisa Beres
Yeah, if we can't, like just like getting toxins out of our body, we need that we need those toxins getting out of our home, too. So, circling back with ventilation, how does building biology differ from conventional wisdom ventilation? We touched upon that, obviously, the mechanical ventilation, but is there anything else that you want to add to that?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Oh, sure. Our needs for ventilation come from many different things. You know, we need mechanical ventilation. If a home doesn't allow for cross ventilation for putting windows in the right places, a home needs more mechanical input if it's not designed for the climate. For example, the home we saw in New Mexico, it had what we call a sun bump that was inset from the edge of the roof just the right amount to take in winter sun and block summer sun because we're working with the angles and the rest of the building had a four foot overhang which is typical for us. That's like having a great big sun or rain hat. Mm hmm. Instead of wearing a plastic green coat.
Lisa Beres
Right I remember See I remember us you showing us that and talking about the roof and because you did get snow right in that area, we're in in New Mexico. And that even with the snow and all that moisture, that four-foot overhang prevented the buildup of moisture on the wall enough just by that forest It was pretty amazing.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yeah. And then the wall itself, when you have what Ron was calling breathable materials, let's call it a vapor open system. It's made with materials like clay, that can absorb many times their weight and moisture, suck away from wood or anything that might be vulnerable, hold it, and then balance with the natural environment when the environment gets drier, it releases that. So, you can do a vapor open system, that's very, very durable. But it has to be done with materials that have this ability to work with whatever nature can throw at it. Yeah, that's
Lisa Beres
So interesting. I, you know, it'd be nice. Can you just tell us like general regions of the country what building materials work best in each? So north, Northern, Southern, Eastern Western, just kind of a general overview.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
First of all, you know, we want insulation in mass, insulation and mass play a role in every region, but they play a different role. In an area like Santa Fe, when you have enough mass in the wall, it can help condition the building very comfortably. Because at that high altitude, it gets cold at night, even in the summer, and it's dry all year. And in the winter, we get a lot of sun, so the walls act like a battery. And so, at night, in the summer, they take on the cooler temperatures, but it takes several hours for it to make its way through the wall. So, then it helps cool the wall during the day. And then it heats up during the day. And it allows it to have a steady not too cold temperature at night. Well, it's so it's bringing its warmth in while it's cooling busy cooling off for the next day. So that kind of use of mass works very, very well in a high altitude, hot, you know, mixed climate, a lot of mass and wall is not a good strategy. In Alaska. Yeah. And there, you want a lot of, you know, a lot more insulation in the balance, but the mass wall can still be helpful in maintaining heat, if you're creating the right kind of heat in the house, if you're creating a radiant heat source, it will store in a mass wall. So, you can also use mass in a very, very cold climate to be of great benefit. In fact, we've actually built natural homes in 17 states, four provinces, etc. So, in a wide variety of climates with the light straw clay technique, it's a wet technique, and it needs to dry. So, doing it in a very wet climate without a very good strategy in place to get it initially dried, is not advised. But once it's dry, it has tremendous capacity to store. So back to ventilation, you know, that's a good accompaniment to ventilation to natural ventilation is having natural walls that have a lot of storage capacity.
Lisa Beres
Is the reason that we just don't see more of this type of building is cost? You know, I know here in Orange County, I mean, they just build these communities like oh, Polly, you know, you've seen them. I mean, they just put them up in a couple weeks and you've got like, all of a sudden, these communities appearing, there is much demand. There's so much demand for housing insurance, they churn these houses like insane, insanely fast and, you know, as probably as cheap as they can make them is that really part of the issue is the cost that just would be unfeasible especially here in California?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Well, I can tell you a little story I had when we first did our first home together in Santa Fe, a developer came by and he was very impressed. He said, Well, how much does this cost. And at that time, you know, obviously it costs more to build a handcrafted mass wall house, it's going to give you the service I said all about $1 per square foot per year, because this house is going to last for several hundred years, pricing was different there. And he thought that was a funniest thing he'd ever heard. Think about not just initial costs, get your money and get your money out but costs for the throughout the life of the building. Now in Europe, when people used to stay put and, you know, to found a cornerstone of a home, you knew you were passing on to your family for generations and generations. And just as a matter of national pride. If we wanted to create a future of good housing stock for a country that would last our citizens for generations, we wouldn't be judging everything in terms of cost per square foot of initial cost to build and we would have a different mindset and we'd build differently.
Lisa Beres
I love that. That's so true. I think rings true with health, right? I mean, we're vegan, we eat primarily organic. And when you try to educate someone who's not doing that, the first thing you know, a lot of them will say is Oh, it's too expensive. It's too expensive to buy organic. And then you're thinking well, how much do people spend when they get an illness when they get diagnosed with cancer or any kind of illness like that they'll anything they'll take out all their savings, they'll mortgage, their home, whatever they have to do to get Healthy, right as same thing, right? prioritizing parent as realizing it's an investment in you. It's investment in your health, your children, our planet, and all of that. It's just all full circle.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yes. And another part of this paradigm that you've brought up is, how much space Do I really need to be happy? Yeah. And often people will come in, you know, and there's three things budget cost, quality, and for our health, the things, the quality we need to add, so will be healthy, for me is non-negotiable. If that's not also a client's first priority, then they're not my client, they should find someone more like minded to work with. So, then we just have costs and size are the two flexible parameters. And if someone is on a budget, one of the things that I really enjoy doing is someone is showing someone how they can get quality space and less square footage than they thought they might need.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, quality over quantity.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Same with organic food people eat far too, you know, someone is clearly eating too much and then says organic food is too expensive. You might have him look. They're consuming air, right? Same with houses. Yeah,
Lisa Beres
Yeah. I love that. Well, if you are listening and enjoying this show, this has been brought to you by the building biology Institute. They are a nonprofit organization that's dedicated to the holistic science that you can embrace, and their seminars, courses or certification programs. And on their website, they have fact sheets and videos on designing, building and remediating health supporting structures in harmony with the planetary ecology.
Ron Beres
To find out more and become a member, go to building biology institute.org, once again, building biology institute.org.
Lisa Beres
And we are here with Paula Baker Laporte, architect and fellow building biology, environmental consultant, among other things, Paul is actually a teacher at the Institute. And we have known her for years and years. And she's just a wealth of knowledge. And we're picking up with ventilation in our homes and natural building.
Ron Beres
Paula, a great segue. So, can I get the ventilation that I need for my home? By just opening the windows?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
It depends on while in Los Angeles, theoretically, you could do that because of the climate, and perhaps not because of the pollution. But it really depends on what you're bringing in from the outdoors as well. So, what do we do and its really smoky outside, we have recently installed a ventilation system in our house with souped up filtration so that when we do have a smoke event, we can maintain our health?
Lisa Beres
Guys, I know LA. I mean, normally the EPA statistic of indoor air is two to five times more polluted than the outdoor air isn't always true on a polluted day and a smoggy day in LA. And then you've like we talked earlier about people with allergies, they can't open their windows on certain days, high allergy days and things like that. So yeah, we're kind of in a flux, if you're, you know, in that situation, so we have a lot of air purifiers throughout our home. You know, we don't have a whole house filtration but we do use portable air purifiers on every floor we have a three-story townhouse that we live in, not a natural built house yet. We are all hardwired though Paula, we got a lot of things going just not the walls. So, our walls, would you call they're not breathable, or would you call like a stick built home semi breathable, and do you still need ventilation if you have breathable walls?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yes, you still need ventilation because the walls shouldn't should not be counted on to get your air exchange just like our skin. Although it does exchange with the environment, we'd be in trouble if we didn't have noses and mouths for the major air exchange in the body. And so, the same is true of our homes or windows in a natural sense or windows are the lungs of the or the breathing organism for the body that openings and then at times now we need life support beyond that. And all homes whether natural or not need to have the ability to remove pollution and pollution comes in the form of you know when we bathe or shower all of that extra vapor. If you're seeing any condensation on your Windows at any time during the year. There's too much vapor in the home. It's always hard for the building biology students and it was hard for me to understand at first that it can be pouring rain outside on a cold day. And if you open your windows. Have you ever done that you don't have a shower your bathrooms all mirrors all fogged up and it's cold and rainy outside and you open your window and the all of the water vapor goes away? Yeah, you would think You're bringing in more humid air. But in fact, because it's cold, when it gets into the house and expands, it has more capacity to take those shirts out of the air. Oh, interesting.
Ron Beres
Well, you Paula, you mentioned earlier you talked about HRV Is there anything any more information you can provide us around the mechanics of that?
Lisa Beres
Say someone who actually grew up in a home without one but didn't have any problems?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
You two are younger than me. But most of homes in my day, we didn't have any cooling. We lived in Toronto, it got cold in the winter. And in the mornings, there'd be a ribbon of ice on the inside of the windows, because we didn't have double pane glass.
Ron Beres
Wow, your tough.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
I�m Canadian. You know, we lived under different circumstances, and that those homes, really, they weren't very airtight. We got fresh air exchange, maybe in ways we didn't want it. But there was enough air running through it, we didn't need as much technical assistance. So, a properly built home nowadays, probably does need technical assistance unless it's very consciously built as a natural home in a good climate. Even though you're in Los Angeles, and I'm in a drier part of Oregon, our climates are simple compared to what most of the country Yeah, faces. So, in Florida, where it's hot and humid or so, even worse, in climates, where it's horrible and cold all winter, and then horrible and humid all summer and hot. Yeah.
Lisa Beres
So, it's funny, something we get asked a lot is, you know, are older homes, more toxic or less toxic than newer homes. The perception is that older homes are more toxic. But I think because of this airflow that you had in older drafty homes, you know, you did have these toxins getting out more than you do today. In the green, tightly sealed buildings,
Paula Baker-LaPorte
I see different kinds of problems in older homes and newer homes. Mm hmm. So typically, in an old to buy an older home, you know, you're going to have some pesticide residue, there may be lead paint, there may be a specialist somewhere. And nature has had its time to work its way through every inefficiency and insufficient detail in that home so that it's probably created mold or insect infestations or something along the way. So, you have all of that set of problems. Yeah, newer homes unless they're carefully built with good chemistry, you're going to have new chemical load, and new moisture issues from new construction. People rarely take into account that most new buildings or wet buildings in need to dry out. And that's a common problem.
Lisa Beres
Mm hmm. That they're because they're always in a hurry, right? There's just always a deadline. So, if they get like a rainstorm during is that the issue? If it rains during the construction, they just throw it up and say, Oh, well.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
So, you know, every time we use concrete, there's a lot of water in concrete, and it takes longer than you know, people think. Concrete dries out in 28 days, it reaches full strength.
Ron Beres
Paula, Sophie's Choice, you have to pick one, you're very diplomatic. You have to choose. Would you rather go with? Do you want new or old?
Lisa Beres
That mold? You want pesticides in your carpet or mold in your walls? I'll take neither.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
That's not saying hey, every new home is moldy. I would look for a home with certain characteristics, whether it was new or old. Where do we see failures, often in basements and crawl spaces? In fact, I worked on a project in Los Angeles where they could only build a certain size home. It was a demand suffocation. I think it was called. My wife saw that only so much of the home could be above ground. And since the properties are so expensive, they needed to build a basement to get some of the rooms that are the size home they want. So, it's the problems are built in. So, there can be good old homes and there could be good new homes.
Ron Beres
You still didn't pick Paula. That's okay. We're going to let you pass on that one to pass on/
Lisa Beres
A good answer. Well, Ron, what was the study from the Silent Spring Institute, they found DDT pesticide that's been banned. 40 years ago.
Ron Beres
They found it in 550 homes. I think this was in upstate New York area.
Lisa Beres
Two thirds of the home had DDT still in the remnants. Was that what it was later? Yeah, two thirds of the two thirds of the home's carpet 30 plus years later, still had remnants of DDT pesticide in the carpet. Not to go down a tangent of that. But you know, you think about babies on the floor and pets on the floor. And, you know, you're tracking your shoes and all of that. So,
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yeah, that's a perfect example of something we've banned, but it's still amongst us and you definitely have a higher chance of finding it in an older home.
Lisa Beres
Right? DDT is these persistent chemicals. It's just crazy. I know the University of Arizona, my alma mater, did a study on dust in the home and found that 60% of the dust is tracked in from the bottom of our shoes. And what was prominent in the dust was led DDT, an arsenic, then that's like, that was a recent study. So, the fact that we're still we're still tracking that into our homes is crazy.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
So, the clearly obvious first piece of very valuable, completely free advice to give anyone is make your home and no shoes home.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, we do it unless we're going out somewhere dressy and I have heels on and my dress is too long. I have an exception. No, but it's true. I have my indoor flip flops. So, what I do is I slip out of my shoes living in the garage, and then I just put on my indoor flip flops as I like to have flip flops on when I'm walking around the house. I don't wash my floors every day. So, I don't want to get Do you have radiant heating? Did you have radiant heating in your flooring? in New Mexico?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yes, we always put radiant heating in we rarely use it.
Lisa Beres
Oh, you do? Okay. It's just for those super cold days.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
It�s for whoever buys the house next?
Ron Beres
What are the downsides to installing an HRV or an ERV?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
We've looked into many, many different brands. And some of the things you'll find is a cardboard core. So, paper core. So right in the core where the heat exchange in energy exchange is happening, there's mold prone materials. What we've also found in a lot of the course is that biocides are used because of the propensity for them to potentially get moldy. So that's one issue. What are the ducks made out of? And how are they hooked up? Because there can be problems with what's in ductwork? What's used in all the materials. When HRV�s came first came out, I thought, well, this is very interesting. And I called up one of the manufacturers. And I said, Well, okay, you're so you're dependent on this ventilation system, what if it breaks and you don't know it? And he said, Oh, you'd know it. I said, Well, how would you know, and he said, because you wouldn't hear it anymore. And you can get some very quiet ones now. But I would contend that the you know, that sound of sitting beside a Brook, and waters just the nature has a way of making the sound of water and it just puts your whole body at ease and adds to that level of delight and relaxation that you're feeling. Well consider what we do with all the mechanics we're surrounded with. We're surrounded by repetitive mechanical noise. And that's a stressor. Yeah, it's just as sound in nature relaxes us. Sound by machines indoors are stressor, same as unnatural color. Same as you know, there's nothing that beats the formula of fresh air in nature and its components. And I don't believe that we're yet smart enough to have dissected all of that. It's like, again, let's take a food analogy. You know, that NPK thing that you buy a fertilizer, and it will say its mix of those three ingredients. And at one point, we thought we were so clever that we figured out the only three ingredients that nature needs to grow wholesome food. And then we began to realize or many people that nature and the way it grows things is much more complex than adding three component fertilizers there's all kinds of beneficial organisms that make for healthier, better and more vibrant food. So even if we don't understand the science behind every soil organism, we can make the assumption that we may get better food in working with nature than in working against nature by spraying the food and putting artificial fertilizers on it.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, this roundup and glyphosate and all the pesticides it's just the GMOs it's not even food anymore. Right Frankenfood.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yeah, so I want to bring that back to ventilation. So we've got this perfect formula working out there in nature and we think that we can take it through all this machinery and spit it out the other end and that it's going to maintain all those qualities the those subtle qualities I on levels and you know, the various components that make up fresh air. I don't think through quite the same we don't feel quite the same, do we?
Lisa Beres
It's amazing. We have been out so much more Ron and I walking out in nature since Coronavirus. Because we you know used to go to the gym. That was our workout and yeah, we would go out to the beach or whatever on the weekends. But you know, we were forced to do our daily exercise outside and it's been amazing. It's funny that we weren't doing it because we live in such a beautiful era we pay to live here. We don't we're not too far from the ocean and we've discovered these gorgeous hikes and these trails and no matter what's happening in the day, when we go out for the walk, it just lifts your whole mood your entire mood changes. Okay, so what sort of wrap things up with a final question. And for listeners who are saying, gosh, this all sounds great, Paula. But what can I do today to improve my air quality in my home, and especially if I'm in a position where I can't buy a new home, I can't do an extensive renovation? Or maybe I even live in a rental and I can't do anything like, permanent.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
So, the good news is that there are many, many things you can do. And every change is worthwhile. That's what building biology teaches us so that any positive changes worthwhile. The first thing you can do is most people have fans, stove, hoods, etc. But don't use them when they should be. So, as I said before, if you take a shower and you see condensation on any surface, you need to get the moisture out of the bathroom. So, you don't create a mold problem for yourself. Use the fan, right or if you have a window, and that works, use the window. If you're cooking, get rid of the cooking odors. And if you turn on a fan, remember it's sucking air out of your house. Nature abhors a vacuum. So, where's the replacement air going to come from? Either you tell it where to get that replacement air or it'll find it and you can tell it the way to tell it is to crack a little window. If you're cooking in the kitchen, turn on your fan. And you don't have fresh air replacement which most homes by far do not crack a window while you've got that going. Huh? How do you know when stimulated? You won't smell the food anymore?
Ron Beres
Like the food part? What if you want to smell the food? What if you want that salmon?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
I know I want the salmon while I'm eating? I don't want it well; I'm trying to eat yogurt in the morning.
Ron Beres
Okay, okay.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yeah, no, no, no salmon now, after the fact just isn't a good smell. So, if you put your vent on your stove vent, and you don't open the window, what happens? Depends what air is pretty smart like water, and it'll find the path of least resistance. If that path of least resistance happens to be sucking, say humid outdoor air through an electrical outlet and into your home through your dirty walls that have DDT in them. That's where you'll be getting your replacement there. Whether you like it or not, oh, gotcha. If you open a little window, it's going to say, Oh, this is easier. And it's going to come in there.
Lisa Beres
I gotcha. Okay, so as an architect, is the code for bathrooms, you either have a fan or a window, is that the code?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yes. And in, you know, in different places, they may insist on mechanical even if there is a natural, which I always do anyhow, because sometimes either you can open a window, or you're just the air outside is, you know, the wind's blowing in the wrong way. So, having that kind of assistance is a positive step forward, always.
Lisa Beres
And people have mold. I mean, that's a common, and obviously, there's mildew and then there's mold. But that's so common in the bathroom, you know, around the tub area, you know, battling with that. And I think you're right, I think people aren't really realizing the importance of just ventilating that after a hot shower. And here's some more pointers, it depends what's in the house. If you have a lot of toxins in the house, you need more ventilation to dilute it. So, what are you bringing in in terms of your cleaning products, using air fresheners or anything like that? So, don't bring the toxins into the house, please stop bringing toxins into your home air fresheners do not fresh in your air, they do not clean your air? They do not. they pollute your air, generally, they add more chemicals to your air. And any more tips there.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
There are standalone filters that are excellent. And will really make a difference in the air quality in your home. Mm hmm. Absolutely.
Lisa Beres
We have lists of those on our website, I we've tested. Every major brand, we've had every major brand. And it's kind of like you get what you pay for when it comes to air purification. But going back to what you said don't look at it as the upfront cost. Look at it as an investment in your health and in your future. Now, would there ever be a possibility of building a clay straw? Tiny Home? Why not? Yeah, I was thinking about that while we were talking because you were talking about how much space. Do we really need? You know, you realize this when you move right? When you move and you move into your new place and nothing's unpacked and you're like, wow, I'm fully functioning with this one box. You know, it always happens and you're like, what is all the other stuff that I have? Do I really need it? So, the tiny house movement is really amazing. It's giving people financial freedom. And I have seen some sustainable eco-friendly companies. I think escape homes. I don't know if you're familiar with them escape homes, they build healthy, sustainable, Tiny Homes, home and RV and vacation homes. They're pretty great.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
One of the things we have really Robert has developed is what we call the BEN. It's a backyard eco nest because how many people need an extra room for something. And why not just have a beautiful, natural, modest sanctuary to do whatever that is massage studio yoga practice office, oh, it would be built on site, right. It's a prefabricated with the kinds of materials that we use. So, the natural wall panel and timber I think that there's probably something posted on our website, we did put it out. So, if anyone's interested, they can just email us and we'll put them on our mailing list to EcoNestHomes.com. Eco Nest homes.com.com we, if you just Google it, it should come up along with diaper company.
Ron Beres
Fun Facts about Paul. So, Paul, you walk the walk literally you create healthy, sustainable homes. But you also grow your own food, right?
Paula Baker-LaPorte
Yes, that's my sanity,
Ron Beres
That your sanity. But most people probably don't know this about you at one time. You had your own food truck.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, your own food truck.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
When I finished architecture school, a long, long time ago and worked in the field for about a year became totally disillusioned. And I decided to pursue my other love, which was food. So, myself and a girlfriend opened our business called Moveable Feast, and we had a purple catering van, where we did nuclear rallies and all the stuff that was around there and we do it. So, we were Toronto's only health food catering van. Wow. And that was fun. But then I got serious about architecture again and have never opened another food business that have remained a dedicated health foodie.
Lisa Beres
There's something about growing your own food and the taste right the way it tastes.
Paula Baker-LaPorte
You don't have to take vitamins you feed it to your plants and eat the plants. So, make sure they're getting their nutrition.
Lisa Beres
Wow, that is so full circle. No circle moment. Well, thank you. I hope you we have loved having you Paula, thank you for sharing your wisdom and your knowledge and for being a part of the building biology Institute, which you can go to and visit at building biology institute.org hopefully you guys have enjoyed the show as much as we'd have. Be sure to tune in next week to find out what the heck is going on in your home. I will see you guys next week. Bye bye.
Narrator
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