Have you ever wondered if the product you pick up at a store to slather on you or your child’s skin is safe? Today’s consumers must go far beyond reading a label. We now require trusted and reliable sources to keep us safe from marketing names and terms that sound or look and environmentally friendly, but maybe anything but. Our guest today, Amy Ziff, is the founder and Executive Director of Nontoxic Certified & the MADE SAFE® certification; America’s first comprehensive certification program that screens out known toxic ingredients in everything from baby bottles and bedding to personal care products, cosmetics, and cleaners. MADE SAFE was the first and only seal that applies to all non-food consumer product categories. Their banned list includes a rigorous 6,500 substances that are prohibited in any product earning the coveted MADE SAFE certification.
A mom and prior self-proclaimed weekend toxicologist and label sleuth, Amy turned the industry on its head by demanding accountability from the brands we should trust. Amy explains why we can’t rely on the government to protect us and our families and what you should look for and avoid to shop safely and stay healthy.
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Narrator
How would you like to improve your health and keep your family safe? You're listening to that healthy home hacks podcast where we firmly believe enjoying optimal health shouldn't be a luxury. Healthy Home authorities and husband and wife team Ron and Lisa will help you create a home environment that will level up your health. It's time to hear from the experts. listen in on honest conversations and gain the best tips and advice. If you're ready to dive in and improve your well-being and increase your energy, you're in the right place. Alright, here are your hosts, Baubiologists, authors, media darlings, vicarious vegans and avocado aficionados, Ron and Lisa Beres.
Ron Beres
Have you ever found yourself standing in the store aisle wondering what to buy? One product promises to be eco another promises to be all natural. Get another one uses some organic ingredients. All you're looking for is some dish soap. Today, making green choices and living a healthier lifestyle has become less of a luxury and more of a norm in this recent surge of Greenify in our world and the marketplace, the line between what is and what appears has become blurred, leaving you the consumer, feeling overwhelmed, bombarded and in many cases deceived.
Lisa Beres
That's right. Today's consumer must go far beyond reading a label. We now require trusted and reliable sources to keep us safe. From the eight-legged marketers colorful web of names and terms that sound look or even taste healthy and environmentally friendly. We have allowed a society with an innocent until proven guilty mentality and the products we use and trust daily. In the US. Chemicals are typically regulated after studies indicate potential harm exists. It's no wonder that people get sick. Yet with so little testing and regulation. Most of us are not informed enough to know the cause.
Ron Beres
Information has become ubiquitous. You might think it's easy to make educated choices. Oh, who really has the time. Our guest does Amy Ziff is the founder and executive director of nontoxic certified and the MADE SAFE certification. America's first comprehensive certification program that screens out known toxic ingredients from products that cross store aisles from baby bottles and bedding to personal care products, cosmetics and cleaners. They were the first and only seal that applies to all nonfood consumer product categories.
Lisa Beres
Nontoxic certified evaluates ingredients and common household products that avoids those that fall on the MADE SAFE banned lists, which includes known behavioral toxins, carcinogens and probable carcinogens, heavy metals, developmental and reproductive toxins, endocrine disruptors, toxic flame retardants, and so much more that we're going to get into today.
Ron Beres
The MADE SAFE certification provides intelligence for brands transitioning to safer materials, while harnessing the power of the marketplace to eliminate the use of harmful ingredients. In a nutshell, what that means to you the consumer is they've done the hard work and the homework for you. They vet product ingredients for toxic chemicals known to harm human health and ecosystems.
Lisa Beres
A self-proclaimed weaken toxicologist and label sleuth, Amy pioneered the MADE SAFE seal one of the most rigorous human health and ecosystem safety standards available, the revolutionary ecosystem screening process, the MADE SAFE banned list and built the organization's ingredient database.
Ron Beres
Welcome to the show.
Amy Ziff
Wow, thank you for having me, Ron and Lisa. That was quite the intro.
Lisa Beres
Welcome, welcome. You had a lot of incredible stuff to put in there. We had to trim it.
Ron Beres
Definitely had to trim. Amy, you are impressive, but let's dive right in. Because I know our listeners are shopping for holiday gifts. And we want to be sure they're putting their money where their mouth is on nontoxic brands that care. So, our listeners might be wondering, are certifications for goods such as personal care products even necessary? For example, isn't that what government agencies like the FDA are for?
Amy Ziff
Yes, the sad truth is that despite the number of government agencies that we have, there is no one single unified agency that is looking at ingredients of harm what we often call In the vernacular of the scientists that toxicants that are found in many of today's common place products in our households that we invite in unknowingly unwittingly. And so, we really do need to rely on outside entities to do this work for us because it is hard. And there's so much homework and guess what you can't know, by flipping over a package and reading the label. Truly, truly, truly what it's made of. That's the sad fact. And besides that, the FDA is governed by one law, the EPA by another, and none of them are actually getting rid of the chemicals and ingredients that are considered harmful. For example, the FDA and EPA limit about 11 Ingredients that's compared to the 1400 restricted in the EU for us. So, there's a big disconnect there.
Ron Beres
We'd like to know what percentage is that Amy? You said 11 out of 1,400.
Amy Ziff
And then compare that before you do the math, then compare that 6,500 that MADE SAFE uses as a starting point of what we prohibit that is just where we begin. That's our jumping off point. 6,500 banned ingredients. And that's why we need someone like MADE SAFE and do the hard work and say, Hey, has somebody taken a look and vetted these things? Because I don't want these harmful chemicals in my home. And how else would I know? I look forward to the day that this is not needed, when we put ourselves out of business, but we got a long way to go.
Lisa Beres
We do, I would agree. It's like you said you can go shopping, Ron mentioned at the top of the show going down the aisle just looking for a bottle of dish soap, you can maybe read the label, and maybe get some of the ingredients. But even at that how many people know what those ingredients are? Even if they can see the names, right?
Amy Ziff
That's what I always say this to people, labels lie. They don't necessarily mean to. I think marketers might. People are making claims, or companies are making claims that people read and get all excited over. But they might be meaningless. So just because something resonates doesn't mean it's in fact true. And so, we need to understand that there are parameters for which things are being vetted and MADE SAFE has very strict, very rigorous scientific standards that we execute against. And those are the rules, it's a pass or fail. There's nothing else in between.
Ron Beres
Thank you for you and what you've done with this organization, because it is difficult to understand and navigate the landscape of all the stuff.
Lisa Beres
Yes, 6,500 ingredients that you ban right off the top. And I know you go even deeper than that. It's really impressive. That's a lot of scientists on your team. That's a lot of beakers.
Amy Ziff
Yeah, saying sometimes it's contextual. And this is why we have to go beyond labels. It's about how something is made, what the inputs were, and what ends up in the end product. It's not just simply about the label, and that's where labels can get very confusing. Yes, you might think, oh, that sounds pronounceable. So therefore, it might must be fine. Right. In fact, it's not as simple as it seems. I'll give you an example. Because I think this drives home. Sometimes personal care products will say, though, username for products sake derived from coconut. Yeah, just because that's actually Hello, warning sign. Yeah, right. Okay. So, it might have come from something in nature and that marketers want me to think, but what is it now, if he ends up going through what we see as an intensive chemical process, and it ends up looking like a petroleum-based product at the end? Oh, really a clean ingredient? Or not? You know, is it right? Same as its petroleum derived cousin? Yeah. And chemically, oftentimes, these things are alike. So that Yeah, to be really careful about just making assumptions on ingredients. And though I like the rule, because I know this is about the timer. Everybody goes like, Oh, God, I can't trust the label. And I don't know how to read it. And if it says it's a vegetable, is it not? You know, I do. But the truth is, we have to ask deeper questions. That's where third parties can really come in as a something that we can rely on. And so, I like the rule, if you can pronounce it, it's better. It just doesn't mean it's not true. Yeah. So, we do.
Lisa Beres
Well, we get sodium bicarbonate and things like that, that are actually safe. That sound a little bit, like that sounds like a chemical. And so that is a good point. And I want to switch to we were talking about a little bit of greenwashing that happens obviously with the coconut. I mean, you see it all the time and with fragrances and scents, made with lavender, or whatever that says.
Amy Ziff
That catchy term to look for that you say, okay, it's made with but what else does it mean?
Lisa Beres
Yeah. And that lavender may be synthetic and or they may be one drop of an essential oil of lavender. And the rest of it is synthetic. So, there's a lot of wordsmithing will say that goes on. So, people have become accustomed to green certifications. Would you say that they are equivalent in significance? Are they created equal to the MADE SAFE? How does that differ?
Amy Ziff
So, we like to categorize ourselves as an ecosystem certification. And the reason why we say we're ecosystem versus green. So, I will get back to your question. But by way of description, is that we look at human health priority, obviously, oh, yeah, we also look at how something's going to impact. And we look at this for every ingredient and then put in a product, we look at how it's going to impact and behave in air, water, soil sediment, we're going to look at how it's going to impact aquatic life. So, what happens when it gets into the water table, as well as terrestrial life? So, what happens is it's in landfill? And what if it impacts our flora and fauna and all that. That's what we look at. And so, we consider ourselves not just ego, but in health and ecosystem. And the reason why I say that is because a lot of these green seals that are out there are simply looking at fewer things, your measurements, your parameters aren't all the same, and also not all are holding to the same level of, it's not really performance. Right. But the level of greenness, I don't know what you want to call that. But in the Eco movement, we do talk about right, you guys know, this light green, and then all the way over into the very dark.
Lisa Beres
Shades of green.
Amy Ziff
So, there are shades of considerations for companies, as well. And certifications, too. We like to think of ourselves as setting the gold standard for all of these certifications and hope that they follow and think of ourselves is really that highest rung on the ladder. Oftentimes, we think the other certifications are great stepping stones for grant that might want to come over and go to that next level and get a little bit cleaner. And go to MADE SAFE.
Lisa Beres
Right. It's very confusing for consumers, because you're right, unless they're sort of digging and understand the certifications and the differences, they can naively think that that green leaf and that Green Seal, that certification is covering the health aspects, whereas maybe it's just talking about the recyclability or the lifecycle of the product, and that kind of thing. And we find that Ron, and I find that in homes, with certifications for homes as well, you've got the green certifications that are really dealing with energy efficiency and resource conservation, which is great. But we take it a step further with health. So, we want to get in there and say, how are we going to get all these toxins out of your home? Because you can have a green home that has toxins in it that still met those other standards.
Ron Beres
That's a great point. So how does someone listening identify the correct certifications that are meeting the specifications that they're looking for? So, I'm vegan, for example. So, I'm really against animal cruelty, and I certainly wanted healthy ingredients. What kind of certifications with someone like myself or anyone out there look for? How do you determine what certification is good for you?
Amy Ziff
Yeah, I think that's such an important question. And I also think it's, and I hate to say this, like, hello, shoppers, you have to actually do a little digging in yourself on the difference between what feels right, it's hard, but not all seals can be all things to all people and not all brands can be all things either. And I think that what I try and underscores one, just so you know, Ron, as a vegan, there's a whole vegan category for MADE SAFE so we can tell you some products that are vegan, and we'd like to call that out because we know that that's really important to people. So, it's not just oh, is this free of harmful chemicals. I want to know if there was beeswax in that. Yeah, so it just is another level of scrutiny a different lens.
Lisa Beres
How does that look at me for so I go to the store I picked up a MADE SAFE certified product. How will I know if it's vegan? Well, you guys actually put the word up to look on our Well, you'd have to look at it.
Amy Ziff
We don't put that on pack. Oh, okay, like another layer, if you will. So, we have to do roundups, where we'll say okay, here so you can find them. Here's lots of our vegan products and all of that just because we know that that's something that.
Lisa Beres
But the marketer would probably put that in the verbiage somewhere, right? They probably do.
Amy Ziff
Exactly. And I think for many people, the vegan things to look out for if you're vegan, you're a good label reader.
Lisa Beres
Right? Yeah.
Amy Ziff
You have a pretty good sense. Yeah, nice to be able to call out if the product involves no animal products. But those are things where customers have to prioritize. We're talking about like, kind of rank order. How are you going to differentiate these seals? So, the vegan one is a great point. Similarly, with eco, you can have a product. I like to use actual examples. I think it's really helpful for people to get their head around. Where does this rubber meet the road, but you can have a product made from recycled plastic, for example, and in one aspect that's going to get a good grade on a green score.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, yeah. Like recycled plastic
Amy Ziff
I like recycling too. It's really important. However, when you recycle plastics in this country, we don't have a sophisticated enough recycling system. And so, you're recycling things that actually are harmful. chemicals like phthalates that get into the bin or bisphenols. From different kinds of plastics that validates come from softer plastics, that Elliot's are there to give that flexibility to the plastic it gets thrown in the bin, receipt paper filled with bisphenols. These are BPA people often recognize and know that one, something that we want to avoid other chemicals that kind of come from some of the recycling stream, they all get tossed in. It's like one big cooking stew. And then you end up with non-virgin recycled plastic that actually contains chemicals that you didn't want in there. But you're right, because we can't get them out of the stream yet. Oh, now you have an eco labelled product, something that you think is better. But if that's something that you're putting in your mouth, or could permeate in other ways, maybe that's not the best choice for that use. And that's where it gets really complicated, right? So, in a vegan product, maybe you're going to avoid a product that is renewable, because it comes from an animal source, but you're going to perhaps sub in something that is synthetic. And is that better? Well, it depends is the answer, right? It's very situational. It's very important to understand then the ingredients, the subs, and why you might use recycled plastic in one instance, and that would be a good thing. I would want virgin plastic in another even though I want to see more plastic.
Lisa Beres
I was going to say How about, well, you just hosted the raise the green bar in conjunction with Good Housekeeping which I attended bravo to you. It was really great. I learned a lot. And I love the endocrine disrupting chemicals section. Of course, I knew that would be part I'd like hone in on.
Amy Ziff
Dr. Shanna H. Swam. Just shout out. Yes, sound she is amazing. She�s on our board of supervisors.
Lisa Beres
Amazing, scary, scary. Yeah, I mean, it was like I know she was trying to be like upbeat, but it was like, the question was, what's the future? Are we going to be able to fix this, it's like, we've got to take action? Now, when you're talking about these problems with the recycling, had we done it right from the beginning, we would have to be backtracking and trying to cure these illnesses and get rid of these persistent chemicals in the environment, these chemicals that are in 98% of people who are tested these pee fast chemicals, and all of these endocrine disrupting chemicals that are getting into us now we're having to undo instead of if we had sort of honored nature and really use those materials like glass and stainless steel, and not these cheap, inexpensive chemicals that provided convenience, but are really long term causing so many problems to humans and the wildlife and all of that.
Amy Ziff
Indeed, indeed. And actually, that's why I started MADE SAFE and nontoxic certified was to provide a framework that I felt was missing from the manufacturing side of things, which is we manufacture for performance and aesthetics and all of these Yeah, shelf life. Things. But we don't say at the point of manufacturing, what's going to happen to this when it's done, how's it going to impact people at the point of use, health consequences of these choices were making? And had we done that we live in a different world, but it's not too late. We have to start now we have to implement this. And we have to make it rigorous. You know, it has to be everybody does these assessments. And that's why the work we do behind the scenes with companies is as important as the seal and the certification that we put on the front lines for people because we need to be providing guidance to companies and saying, look, the same old practices that worked 10 years ago don't anymore. I'd like to show that you've given some thought to your inputs, why you're using them why those are sustainable choices, and what you're going to do to shift the market from the ones that we've gotten used to but are no good. We have to hold these companies accountable. And the way we do it is through our purchasing power.
Lisa Beres
Our purchases. Hallelujah. I was just going to say that, Amy and everyone Listening, please. Because it's the holiday season, your shopping, your purchases matter. They're shaping our world. They're shaping the future for your children, when you go the extra mile and buy that natural, organic, that certified product, because the companies that are using the MADE SAFE certified, I know it's a rigorous couple of years it can take to get the certification. Obviously, money's evolved for these companies. So sometimes that cost can be passed on to you. But you're changing the future. When you do support those companies and you buy better you shop smarter, you read the labels, and it's up to us. They listen, right? And I've worked with very large corporations, and they read your emails, they read your social media posts, they take your feedback, and they will respond to it. And that's really where they get that feedback. They're not sitting around the boardroom going, how can we charge more for our products?
Well, that came our wrong. I guess what I meant was, I feel like they're always cutting corners is what I'm saying. I have a lot of products that I like that started off glass, and then next thing you know, they're in a plastic bottle. So, it's always bottom line, bottom line, bottom line. But if we the consumers are saying, hey, you know, we want those glass bottles back, we won't mind paying an extra 50 cents a bottle. They'll listen to that. They'll listen to us. So that's the big takeaway from today's show, I think.
Amy Ziff
Exactly. We can empower change by voting dollars. I love that. And actually, I was just going to make a catalog to say Amazon just launched their climate pledge friendly with MADE SAFE in it, which is a promise to present and support and market, more eco minded products. And I thought, that's an exciting thing. You're thinking about shopping? Look, I think less is more, can you go to a thrift store can you reuse, ask yourself if you can buy better and save and buy less, all of those things. But we know people are going to buy and they're going to gift and so making that a thoughtful, impactful purchases change.
Lisa Beres
That�s wonderful, that's really great with Amazon. So, you can actually see the certifications on a section is that a section within Amazon?
Amy Ziff
Yeah, the climate-pledge friendly on Amazon, there you can see that. And I can see their hundreds of MADE SAFE products on Amazon now and being prioritized.
Ron Beres
So, regulation, that's a big win for everybody, Amy.
Lisa Beres
I mean, that is that's a win. That's a win.
Amy Ziff
It is. We have to get green products out there. Ecosystem friendly products, if you will, out there for everyone at prices for the masses. So, I still got a long way to go. But there are some and I'm excited about those.
Lisa Beres
That's amazing. Okay, so we're aware that your chemists and research team screens each additional ingredient and their sub ingredients to determine if one they buy it bio accumulate and humans to persist in the environment or three if they're generally toxic, or toxic to aquatic life and terrestrial life. Can you elaborate about what you refer to as secondary toxins and tell our listeners, what makes the MADE SAFE certification unique?
Amy Ziff
Yeah, so primary toxins, like the stuff on our bandwidth, those 6500 knows that are just flat out knows, we don't want something that's a what we call a known toxicant. In the products that we use, we think that fundamentally nobody should be using those and that there should be a moratorium on creating more of these and allowing them into use writ large period. So, we would like to see that. And those are really the primary toxins. Those are big promises. The nose, as we like to call them for consumers. And you talked about them earlier, Lisa and Ron, it's the neurotoxins, behavioral toxins.
Lisa Beres
Those pesticides. Yeah, I didn't finish them. So, there's like endangered plants, high risk pesticides, persistent pollutants, chemicals of concern, flame retardants, and when I went to your website, I was like 6,500! Oh my god, I bet there's some on there that would shock everybody that you're like, oh, wow, I didn't think that because that's a lot of chemicals. This is a side note, but do you get pressure from the chemical industry? Do you get threatening emails? Because I know the plastic industry is very defensive.
Amy Ziff
I mean, now that we haven't been going to trade shows and big conferences for two years. I'm like, Yeah, it's so nice. Nobody walks up to me all gruff.
Lisa Beres
You have to wear a bag over your head.
Amy Ziff
Yeah, that's good.
Lisa Beres
You don�t need bodyguards?
Amy Ziff
Yeah, exactly. Not yet anyway. But no, we kind of feel like we're doing our job if people are saying, Hey, why that I want to know more. We're glad if we're making people think and ask questions and ultimately, perhaps change their own policies. So, we'll talk with anyone I think that's a difference between us and other entities out there because we have a whole channel to work with companies that's behind the scenes that just allows them say, hey, come and learn. It's like well I was saying products haven't always been asked to manufacture themselves for human health in the ecosystem. So, we've thrown down the gauntlet. And we know that it takes some time. And if a company is willing to roll up their sleeves and do the work, then we're excited about that, because that's how progress is made, rather than pointing a finger and just saying you are bad.
Lisa Beres
We want improvement.
Amy Ziff
Yeah, we really do. We need, we all collectively need their improvement and need them to do this. I mean, you know.
Lisa Beres
Applaud them. I see people get real nasty sometimes on social media. Well, this big juggernaut of a company has a couple healthy green products and the rest are toxic. Okay. Yes, it's easy to point fingers and say, Gosh, I can't believe they have these toxins. But hey, they're trying, they're coming out with a green line. And the more that we buy those, the more they'll make those and do the switchover, we know that firsthand. We've toured some of these factories. And yeah, so we have to applaud rather than. I agree with that.
Amy Ziff
Encourage Yeah. And I totally forget what the second part of the question was.
Lisa Beres
Oh, I know, the secondary toxins. What is that?
Amy Ziff
So those are kind of more layered in. So those are the things we'll see learn about during our process of doing the kind of evaluation that we do. So, after the obvious knows the ones that we can name, the ones that are on the list, then we're going to go and screen for secondary things that we don't permit. And that's where things get really hard, because there are over 85,000 chemicals in use today, right. And I think the number is probably exceeding 100,000. At this point. I mean, that number is old. And the point of the matter is, we don't have an accurate count, because things just get put into products and the way things or chemicals are registered is really funky. And the EPA estimates about 700 chemicals are added to the market each year, most without any scrutiny. And so, I don't know how many are out there, however, that said, we will evaluate anything that's put before us. And when we do that we see this is not good for humans, it bio accumulates in their system, or it's never going to degrade for all types like the perfluorinated and poly floral alcohol substances that have gotten a lot of Hawk over the last year with my movie dark waters and portrayal of Dow Chemicals and what happened there and what we're still sort of suffering from pollution standpoint.
Lisa Beres
For listeners who don't know what that is, those are your nonstick stain resistant, grease resistant chemicals that you would find in your nonstick cookware, your Gore-Tex, any water repellent kind of clothing. I can't even be in fast food wrappers, your French very wrapper on the inside lining, anything grease, stain, stick resistance. So, think about that. These are called P fast chemicals. We did a whole show on those actually. And I think its episode 33 If anyone wants to go back, but yeah. I know that. Lisa, I know. I'm like I remember that when they're wreaking havoc. Yeah.
Amy Ziff
Almost all our bodies there in almost every water supply. Yeah, in this country, we've got a real problem on our hands. But so, as it relates to secondary toxins, we don't allow the PFS chemistries, but we're seeing them we see them pop up in cosmetics. Now we see that and things like why do you need it? And you're not weird? And cosmetics, yes, or gray? Or whatever. And so why do you want it in the cream that you're putting on your face? We want to get those out. So those are things that we would identify and then say no, not permitted? I mean, we don't really talk to consumers about primary and secondary things. Because this is just like, Oh, yeah. Like, forget it. So here's what I like to say is the bottom line is, if you are looking to buy something next, you can trust a MADE SAFE certified item to be free of harmful pollutants that you don't want to bring into your home, put on your body use with your family, or put out into the world. So yeah, that's sort of a logline I go with because that's a lot easier than�
Lisa Beres
Listing the 6,500 chemicals. And well, I mean, that's the whole point of today's show, is yeah, we're getting nitty gritty. We're talking about a lot of technical, chemical things. But at the end of the day, you don't have time to do this research. Yes, you need to be aware, but you don't have time to do all that. So that's why the MADE SAFE certification. And certifications are really important because you can trust that they vetted that. And they've done all the work and they have the scientists and researchers who have done that for you. Because people are busy. They're juggling jobs and kids and you name it. And so that's what I love about it. I know sometimes I've been at a cocktail party Amy, where I'm just going on my little tangent about endocrine disruptors, and the person's like, yeah, I gotta go.
Ron Beres
I don�t think anyone would leave that conversation.
Lisa Beres
We�d be in the corner all night.
Amy Ziff
We could go chat. My husband's like, you can clear a room like nobody else. Thank you.
Lisa Beres
Oh good, I�m not the only one. We all need to go to the same cocktail party with our organic wine, of course.
Amy Ziff
And then people say, Oh, okay, so what about this and they name their favorite product and then I'm like, your fragrance, or whatever. But it's very exciting to recommend certified candles.
Lisa Beres
You certify candles? Oh, that is so incredible.
Amy Ziff
Yeah, we started working with them about a year ago, I think we launched their first candles and it was so awesome to be able to give gifts and candles because I'm like the person who's like down with fragrance.
Lisa Beres
I know. Yeah.
Ron Beres
So, what's the name of the brand? Again?
Amy Ziff
Fontana Candle Company.
Lisa Beres
Fontana.?
Ron Beres
Okay, shout out.
Lisa Beres
I'm going to put that in the show notes. Because you're right. It's the holidays, everyone's buying candles, air fresheners, all the things they shouldn't be sending their homes with. And people same thing, Amy, it's like, well, is this candle, okay? And I'm like, hey, at the end of the day, it needs to say 100% essential oils are unscented because there's nothing healthy in between, you're going to have a load of synthetic fragrances polluting your house yet smells good. But you'll notice your nose gets itchy, your throat gets scratchy. You notice those reactions from those synthetic chemicals as they volatize into the air?
Amy Ziff
That's right. What Yeah, wick What is it made of? Yeah, all of those things are exactly. They're going off there in your air. And I always say this to be able to, if you feel your home needs some kind of scent masking some plug in a candle, a sign a login spray? Yeah, the question you really want to be asking is what's going on in my house? Do I have a mold issue? Yeah, I have my Sunday house going on? Yeah, right, that I need to deal with, because you're trying to mask something go to the real root of the problem. And deal with that.
Lisa Beres
I mean, I think our bodies today are symbiotic to what's happening in the world. And in the environment, it's exact same thing. So, when people are masking their health issues with medication, they're popping pills, they're numbing themselves out, they're giving themselves energy with coffee every day, everything's masks, masks, masks. And then we see it also like you just talking about in the home, masking, smells, masking all of this, because people don't want to take the time to dig in there and get to the root. And also our society, our medical system really just wasn't built on that it wasn't built on like, Hey, how about if we actually heal you and figure out what is causing this depression instead of putting you on anti-anxiety or whatever, you know, not saying not to do that? Check with your doctor. But yeah, let's get to the root of all of it. Let's get to the root of all of that. It's so much cheaper. In the end, it'll save you so much money, and it'll save you so much time. That little effort upfront really well.
Ron Beres
Well said. Amy, quick question. Can you explain what the precautionary principle is, and its significance?
Amy Ziff
Sure. One of the things that differentiates MADE SAFE is in fact, our use of the precautionary principle. This is really where if you want to think about it, if there are unanswered questions when we're looking at chemical and input a substance, and we just don't have enough information, maybe that the studies haven't been done. So, nobody has this information. Oftentimes people say, Well, it seems fine, because nothing seems wrong with it. Right? We don't know. So, we'll Greenlight it. Well, let me say if we say, we're going to exercise the precautionary principle. That means when in doubt, it's a no go. This flips the entire model of how things are done in the US. Guys set it at the outset, where we live in a world where chemicals are innocent until proven guilty. And the way they're often proven guilty is through consumer lawsuit. It takes a long, long, long, long, long, long, long time, and a lot of money to get to that point. It's really hard. So instead, we start if we don't know, we don't permit it. And we tell every company we work with, look, we don't know enough about this. So, we're not permitting it. But if you can bring us new information science that we can use, yeah, we're willing to reevaluate and look at it. So, we're very open in that regard. But we just got to take the guesswork out of it. And we've got to stop giving leeway where it isn't deserved. And that's really the crux of the precautionary principle is just to say, let's slow down. Let's take caution. And let's not allow things.
Lisa Beres
Why don't we call it the common sense, the common sense principle?
Amy Ziff
I like that.
Lisa Beres
It's just as you're saying, and it's like, how are we not doing that? Right? It gets very political and the money trail gets very involved in all of that.
Amy Ziff
So yeah, you got to know that there are a lot of people out there lobbying for the chemical industry as they outnumber us. And they outspend. Yeah, consumers, how much money do you put behind lobbying for safe ingredients?
Lisa Beres
Right? Yeah. Great point. Yeah. So where can our audience find an update list of all the MADE SAFE certified products?
Amy Ziff
They can go to www.MADE SAFE.org. And search by product search by brand. And look at the listings, that's probably the best thing to do is look at my brand all the list of all of their products that's always up to date and accurate for people.
Lisa Beres
Could you look up, say by like lipsticks, and then it�ll pull all those?
Amy Ziff
We don�t do lipstick, because those are really complicated. So, we haven't done any lipstick, some lip balm, lip, colors are involved. Color cosmetics are really tricky color area, a lot of talk skins, even when they're made from the earth. Because most people probably know that the kale you grow in your garden is contaminated with heavy metals, because they're out there in our air, and they come down in the ocean and rain and they soak into the soil, and then they get absorbed by some plants more than others. And so, we've created a bit of a dirty environment, and we have our work to do. Yeah, that makes certain things harder than others.
Lisa Beres
Okay, so a company XYZ comes to you. And they have, say, 10 cleaning products in their arsenal. Obviously, each one has to be vetted for its own certification, right? So, you could have a company that has maybe two products certified, but the rest not?
Amy Ziff
That�s right. It�s possible to certify just a couple of things and all that, you know, no shame in that. I think, in fact, we're excited about companies who are willing to put in the time and get there. And we think, and our position is always those two products are going to start to outperform the others because that certification is a meaningful to consumers. It's the only one of its kind is so powerful. So, we think they'll work harder on getting the rest of the cadre of ingredients in line and do that, even if it takes time. And we see companies do that all the time. And that is super exciting.
Lisa Beres
Oh, awesome. And my next part of that question, are you working on an app? Do you think you'll have an app for shoppers?
Amy Ziff
You know, we get asked that all the time. And while I would love to say yes, the reality is we're trying to stay in our lane, but we know our ingredients and what we want to do and where we want to apply. Our focus is helping companies do better and get better and certify the products that are out there. And we think that there are lots of companies who could do an app better than we could, frankly.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, you're right. It's a whole other animal. Yeah.
Amy Ziff
Well, like I'm doing that we're not a tech company. Yeah. Okay.
Ron Beres
Okay. Good. How long is the MADE SAFE certification valid for once it's approved? So, in question me, do all the certifications operate this way?
Amy Ziff
I can only speak for MADE SAFE. That's an excellent question. Should everybody needs to, because if it's at all what we see things change, even when they're not supposed to. And when companies have bi signed agreement, they have to tell us when something is changed, because not all companies on their manufacturing, sometimes things get changed out even annual compliance. So, we can see that. So, we can see Oh, did you switch your sugarcane source? Oh, your call? Oh, do you? Whatever, because not all glycols are the same. Some are. Some aren't. We don't permit the GMOs. So, we want to look at that kind of stuff, right? And see all those changes. So, we have a mechanism to perform annual compliance. And so, you get the certification. And that theoretically rolls over as long as you maintain the work that you're required to do to keep the certification.
Ron Beres
Thank goodness MADE SAFE is so thorough.
Lisa Beres
Yay MADE SAFE. Okay. So, we talked about the absolute problem. And I want to give listeners a little background. Why do we have so many chemicals? Because back in was in 1976, the Toxic Substances Control Act, grandfathered in 1,000s and 1,000s of chemicals without testing without proper testing. So, when Amy mentioned 86,000, and counting that we have, like registered right with the EPA.
Amy Ziff
And that�s just the EPA, and then the FDA has a rule on the books from 1938, which governs food drugs and the personal care. This is part of why I was like, Oh, if it's vastly confusing, because EPA could make one choice on some element of chemistry, but FDA could theoretically have a different one. Yeah. And FDA has grace. And that's a whole black box in and of itself with companies are self-regulating what they can put in there. And so, and grace means generally recognized as safe, which is not necessarily even so we can determine that for themselves.
Lisa Beres
Right? They're self-policing, right? I mean, they're really self-policing. I mean, we did an episode with a mattress company with the flame retardants. We talked about the flame retardants and all that, and I mean, it's self-policing. It's actually shocking when consumers learn that, you know, yeah, it's really, it's eye opening. So, in addition to looking for reputable third-party certifications, like MADE SAFE, what are some ingredients our listeners should be aware of, and avoiding their home and personal care products? Just some of the biggies some of the big culprits?
Amy Ziff
Yes. So, I like to throw them into categories to get people's capacity to get their head around it. We mentioned a few of these, so I'll repeat them. But we talked about the flame retardant chemicals, those are persistent pollutants, they are harmful, they stick around in your house. And you've got everybody has them. I tried to shop for furniture without any of them, but I use electronics. And they're there. Yeah, as much as we can minimize them. And as much as we can force industry to think about alternatives. It is really important. I am passionate about not sleeping on flame retardants. Because when you sleep, you're doing your rest and your rejuvenation and actually your detoxification work. So, you don't want to be constantly barraged with more chemicals. So, flame retardants, that's a big call of chemistry, we want to avoid. The perfluorinated chemistry is also, PFAS we want to avoid. See your show on that one, because that'll give you.
Lisa Beres
Episode 33. It's with a scientist from the Environmental Working Group and we get really down and dirty on PFAS.
Amy Ziff
And my biggest pet peeve on PFAS is that it's in dental floss, if you are using something that makes a claim to be slippery or glide keyword for perfluorinated chemistry in there, you can live without it. And same with your nonstick and stain resistant clothing. I don't like having that on my person. I definitely on the cookware. So those are another big category. Besides, now you think about pesticides being in the food, and they certainly are but they're also in your clothing. And they're also in your personal care. So, looking for products without pesticides is important when you can do it. Those pesticides are some of the most harmful chemicals that we have.
Ron Beres
Because people don't think this but you know, cotton is the largest crop produced right out there. And so, 25% of pesticides are coming from the cotton itself that we're getting.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, yeah, exactly. A lot of people I mean cotton is natural so people think they're doing making a healthy choice when they sleep on cotton or wear cotton. But if it's not organic, it's not certified organic. It's been treated with pesticides. Right and your coffee. I think there's a lot of ways we get so much pesticide exposure, unknowingly. Yeah, even your tap water if you're not filtering your tap water properly, because you could be filtering your tap water and still getting pesticide in your body if you don't have the proper filtration that's removing that particular type of pesticide. So yeah, I would totally agree.
Amy Ziff
Atrazine and Roundup are two of the most common, or glyphosate, the most commonly used pesticides in their food and our water and infiltrating like those perfluorinated chemistries, they're out there. And so, they make their way into our homes through our drinking water. So that's a really important point. Yeah, organic whenever you can in your food, using some kind of filtration anything is better than none on the water.
Lisa Beres
Anything is better than nothing on this whole thing, right? Because I know when I started it's overwhelming, right? Because we're talking about every part of your life right now, we're talking about your air your water, your bedding, your personal care, your household care your candles, we pretty much covered the gamut. And that can be overwhelming for people of course Brian and I that's what we do. We teach people baby steps. Thank you. We even have a program shout out. I helped the basis of all the babies Academy well because I was one of these people who got sick and said, Oh my god, how am I going to get rid of all these chemicals once I discovered this is too much so I just took it one step at a time started with my bedding because you're right we spent eight hours plus a night there and that's a really vulnerable time for our body and a time we want to rest to recoup so if we can pay just start with the bedroom and then just make your way little by little by little this is not Rome wasn't built in a day. This isn't going to happen overnight.
Amy Ziff
But I think I'd want anyone to take away it's matters because every removal is something your body doesn't have to process it delay through and so just think of it that way. This is a method of subtraction and that wins that yes up to be sum total I subscribe to a theory called the total load theory and that means that your body can only handle so much yeah this load of toxins that we're giving it everyone that you eliminate helps it there
Lisa Beres
Yes right.
Amy Ziff
Yeah, I love your, Rome wasn't built in a day. You don't have to do at all. And I think a wonderful place to start aside from those categories that we just named would be fragrance. We touched on that with candles. But fragrance is a backdoor for hundreds if not 1000s of chemicals.
Lisa Beres
It�s the gateway chemical, it's the gateway. I
Amy Ziff
And it's one of the hardest ones to get rid of. Because our everything true sense is so important to us it's locks into memory, it locks into taste, it locks into so many things, which is why companies want to have a signature scent. That's what you're going to recognize them for. But it's important for us to kind of pull back on the fragrance and look for it.
Lisa Beres
Please get rid of your dryer sheets, listeners, oh my god get those wool dryer balls, they work better. And they're better for you and they don't smell I cannot stand when I am in the neighborhood to have the garage door open and I can smell people's dryer sheets. So nauseous. I don't want to be polluted with your fragrance.
Ron Beres
We should be neighbors, right?
Amy Ziff
Neighbors and at each other's parties.
Lisa Beres
We'd never go, we'd never take the dogs in if we saw each other walking.
Ron Beres
The party would never end. Before this ends, can you leave our listeners with some resources to learn more about chemicals to avoid? So, we've talked about things but what are some resources out there?
Amy Ziff
Absolutely. Well, obviously I would say visit medsafe.org We have a lot of information for people, the banned list is pretty heavy. Don't start there.
Lisa Beres
Don't even go there when you start.
Amy Ziff
Something we call product profiles and chemical call outs. And those are just really visual easily broken down, like what's in this hand soap, what's in the sanitizer, or what do I look forward to do better, we will make suggestions and sort of tweaks to help point you in the right direction. So those are a really great place to start. And I always say start with whatever it is you need to buy next, as I said, so just don't put too much pressure on yourself. Other places you can go to learn about this. I love Women's Voices for the Earth. They have amazing information. And they're a great resource. They're nonprofit we work with often. Couple of others, I'd like to suggest people go to Clean and Healthy New York.
Lisa Beres
I�ll put these in the show notes. Guys, okay.
Amy Ziff
Also, the Campaign for Safe Cosmetics, which is run out of the Breast Cancer Prevention Partners. Those are all websites that are very consumer friendly. They're run by nonprofits, they don't have a horse in this race, as I like to say they're neutral. And so, they're going to do a lot of really great work educating and informing people about what are these things? What are the issues?
Lisa Beres
Independent third parties, like you said. What was the New York again, called?
Amy Ziff
Clean and Healthy New York.
Lisa Beres
Oh, never heard of that. One.
Amy Ziff
Clean and healthy NY dot org.
Lisa Beres
Okay, perfect. I'll put that in the show notes days. And at the top of the show, you mentioned that you hope one day to work yourself out of existence, that there wouldn't be a need for the certification anymore, when ultimately every product on shelves is made with safe ingredients. Hallelujah. Do you see this happening in the future? If so, when?
Amy Ziff
Well, I'll tell you what I do see happening. And it's so exciting to me is the companies that we work with, they take our reports and our information back to their manufacturers and their suppliers. And we're seeing changes happen when they say no, we actually can't use that surfactant or No, doesn't fly MADE SAFE. And it gets upstream that whole part of the process that consumers tend not to think about but which is really crucial. And it allows companies to push back, and then they come back to us next time with a new product. And they're like, I think you're going to really love this incredible change is happening all yes, a spectrum. So that's tremendously exciting. We do see this shift happening. And that's just incredibly rewarding to see that kind of progress and hear that kind of feedback, we see the difference on both ends, and then from consumers. And at this point, we've certified over 3,000 items. So, we're really showing.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, great job. I was going to ask you how many so 3,000 That's amazing. How many years has that taken?
Amy Ziff
Six. We�ve been in the market six year. So, we're not look, we're independent. So, would have been a lot easier if we had taken money from a big organization and capitulated on some of our standards. And yeah, batten out the door. We don't do that. We're the real deal. So, it's harder and you grow more slowly and organically. Yeah, it's tremendously exciting to be doing that and to get more companies coming all the time. But look, 3,000 is a teeny number of what's out there, right homes of CPG products, consumer packaged goods, products, and yeah apparel and so I think I feel like in many ways, we're just at the outset. But we are forcing other seals to get tighter on their and less level their own standards. We're doing our job.
Ron Beres
You are.
Lisa Beres
You had mentioned resources. And you mentioned I forget the name of your graphics. They're kind of little mini infographics. I've seen them on your Instagram. So, if you're on Instagram listeners, don't find them MADE SAFE. You guys have the cutest, MADE SAFE HQ, you have just little square, like mini infographics on a particular topic. So, it might be hand sanitizers, it might be laundry detergent, it might be a mattress, and they're really digestible. They're really easy to see and you're like, Whoa, these are the five things in the mattress that I don't want. These are the three things in the hand sanitizer. And so, I think that's a great resource to I'm going to put your Instagram handle in the show notes as to because those have helped me a lot, too.
Amy Ziff
Oh good, we love hearing from people. What are you having trouble with? What is the best thing you found? And asked your companies. That's the best thing somebody could do for us as a small organization is go to your favorite product company and say why aren't you MADE SAFE?
Lisa Beres
Why aren't you doing better?
Amy Ziff
You say you're doing this; you claim to be green, then get MADE SAFE. Proof is in the pudding. We want to see that because that's the only way we fundamentally really know. And so that's huge, because we get inquiries coming to ask from companies to say, we heard about this on our site.
Lisa Beres
We�ve been getting nagged by our customers. Yeah.
Ron Beres
Amy, I love the name, MADE SAFE.
Lisa Beres
Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking you�ve got to encompass a lot of stuff in there.
Amy Ziff
Safe ingredients. That's what it comes down to right now.
Lisa Beres
This started for you. You're a mother, right? You have how many kids?
Amy Ziff
I have three kids. Three kids. Yeah, I got into this because I was an internet entrepreneur. I wasn't doing anything with regard to better chemicals. I thought I considered myself an ecoista. And then I took my twins home from the hospital and they were allergic to things I didn't know you could be allergic to and have a master's in journalism. And I just started researching. I was like, holy moly. Yeah, so much stuff that can go into our products without any kind of rules or regulation. And we don't know and we presume that they are safe. I read Yeah. Somebody must be looking at that. And right. No advances No, there. Yeah. So, then you believe the marketing hype. And sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. And there's that if we have organic for food as the system by which we understand how something was grown? Why do we not have that for the rest of the stuff, right, bring into our homes, we've made really good money on these things. We should have an understanding of what it was made with and whether or not that meets our values.
Ron Beres
MADE SAFE was born, right?
Lisa Beres
MADE SAFE was born.
Ron Beres
Thank you so much for joining us today. You weren't just incredible.
Lisa Beres
Yes. And Amy, a big shout out to you Nontoxic Certified, MADE SAFE, and for your passion to create a better and safer world for all of us and the future generations. Thank you.
Ron Beres
To learn more about the MADE SAFE certification visit MADESAFE.org where you can find trusted products and find a banned list which contains 6,500 substances that are prohibited from use in MADE SAFE certified products.
Lisa Beres
And friends, thank you for joining us today. Please shop safely for your loved ones by choosing products that won't cause harm to people, pets or the planet. And be sure to visit random lisa.com forward slash podcast for all the links in the show notes. And we will see you next week!
Ron Beres
Bye, everyone.
Amy Ziff
Bye. Thanks for having me again. Thanks for your work.
Narrator
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Narrator
How would you like to improve your health and keep your family safe? You're listening to that healthy home hacks podcast where we firmly believe enjoying optimal health shouldn't be a luxury. Healthy Home authorities and husband and wife team Ron and Lisa will help you create a home environment that will level up your health. It's time to hear from the experts. listen in on honest conversations and gain the best tips and advice. If you're ready to dive in and improve your well-being and increase your energy, you're in the right place. Alright, here are your hosts, Baubiologists, authors, media darlings, vicarious vegans and avocado aficionados, Ron and Lisa Beres.
Ron Beres
Have you ever found yourself standing in the store aisle wondering what to buy? One product promises to be eco another promises to be all natural. Get another one uses some organic ingredients. All you're looking for is some dish soap. Today, making green choices and living a healthier lifestyle has become less of a luxury and more of a norm in this recent surge of Greenify in our world and the marketplace, the line between what is and what appears has become blurred, leaving you the consumer, feeling overwhelmed, bombarded and in many cases deceived.
Lisa Beres
That's right. Today's consumer must go far beyond reading a label. We now require trusted and reliable sources to keep us safe. From the eight-legged marketers colorful web of names and terms that sound look or even taste healthy and environmentally friendly. We have allowed a society with an innocent until proven guilty mentality and the products we use and trust daily. In the US. Chemicals are typically regulated after studies indicate potential harm exists. It's no wonder that people get sick. Yet with so little testing and regulation. Most of us are not informed enough to know the cause.
Ron Beres
Information has become ubiquitous. You might think it's easy to make educated choices. Oh, who really has the time. Our guest does Amy Ziff is the founder and executive director of nontoxic certified and the MADE SAFE certification. America's first comprehensive certification program that screens out known toxic ingredients from products that cross store aisles from baby bottles and bedding to personal care products, cosmetics and cleaners. They were the first and only seal that applies to all nonfood consumer product categories.
Lisa Beres
Nontoxic certified evaluates ingredients and common household products that avoids those that fall on the MADE SAFE banned lists, which includes known behavioral toxins, carcinogens and probable carcinogens, heavy metals, developmental and reproductive toxins, endocrine disruptors, toxic flame retardants, and so much more that we're going to get into today.
Ron Beres
The MADE SAFE certification provides intelligence for brands transitioning to safer materials, while harnessing the power of the marketplace to eliminate the use of harmful ingredients. In a nutshell, what that means to you the consumer is they've done the hard work and the homework for you. They vet product ingredients for toxic chemicals known to harm human health and ecosystems.
Lisa Beres
A self-proclaimed weaken toxicologist and label sleuth, Amy pioneered the MADE SAFE seal one of the most rigorous human health and ecosystem safety standards available, the revolutionary ecosystem screening process, the MADE SAFE banned list and built the organization's ingredient database.
Ron Beres
Welcome to the show.
Amy Ziff
Wow, thank you for having me, Ron and Lisa. That was quite the intro.
Lisa Beres
Welcome, welcome. You had a lot of incredible stuff to put in there. We had to trim it.
Ron Beres
Definitely had to trim. Amy, you are impressive, but let's dive right in. Because I know our listeners are shopping for holiday gifts. And we want to be sure they're putting their money where their mouth is on nontoxic brands that care. So, our listeners might be wondering, are certifications for goods such as personal care products even necessary? For example, isn't that what government agencies like the FDA are for?
Amy Ziff
Yes, the sad truth is that despite the number of government agencies that we have, there is no one single unified agency that is looking at ingredients of harm what we often call In the vernacular of the scientists that toxicants that are found in many of today's common place products in our households that we invite in unknowingly unwittingly. And so, we really do need to rely on outside entities to do this work for us because it is hard. And there's so much homework and guess what you can't know, by flipping over a package and reading the label. Truly, truly, truly what it's made of. That's the sad fact. And besides that, the FDA is governed by one law, the EPA by another, and none of them are actually getting rid of the chemicals and ingredients that are considered harmful. For example, the FDA and EPA limit about 11 Ingredients that's compared to the 1400 restricted in the EU for us. So, there's a big disconnect there.
Ron Beres
We'd like to know what percentage is that Amy? You said 11 out of 1,400.
Amy Ziff
And then compare that before you do the math, then compare that 6,500 that MADE SAFE uses as a starting point of what we prohibit that is just where we begin. That's our jumping off point. 6,500 banned ingredients. And that's why we need someone like MADE SAFE and do the hard work and say, Hey, has somebody taken a look and vetted these things? Because I don't want these harmful chemicals in my home. And how else would I know? I look forward to the day that this is not needed, when we put ourselves out of business, but we got a long way to go.
Lisa Beres
We do, I would agree. It's like you said you can go shopping, Ron mentioned at the top of the show going down the aisle just looking for a bottle of dish soap, you can maybe read the label, and maybe get some of the ingredients. But even at that how many people know what those ingredients are? Even if they can see the names, right?
Amy Ziff
That's what I always say this to people, labels lie. They don't necessarily mean to. I think marketers might. People are making claims, or companies are making claims that people read and get all excited over. But they might be meaningless. So just because something resonates doesn't mean it's in fact true. And so, we need to understand that there are parameters for which things are being vetted and MADE SAFE has very strict, very rigorous scientific standards that we execute against. And those are the rules, it's a pass or fail. There's nothing else in between.
Ron Beres
Thank you for you and what you've done with this organization, because it is difficult to understand and navigate the landscape of all the stuff.
Lisa Beres
Yes, 6,500 ingredients that you ban right off the top. And I know you go even deeper than that. It's really impressive. That's a lot of scientists on your team. That's a lot of beakers.
Amy Ziff
Yeah, saying sometimes it's contextual. And this is why we have to go beyond labels. It's about how something is made, what the inputs were, and what ends up in the end product. It's not just simply about the label, and that's where labels can get very confusing. Yes, you might think, oh, that sounds pronounceable. So therefore, it might must be fine. Right. In fact, it's not as simple as it seems. I'll give you an example. Because I think this drives home. Sometimes personal care products will say, though, username for products sake derived from coconut. Yeah, just because that's actually Hello, warning sign. Yeah, right. Okay. So, it might have come from something in nature and that marketers want me to think, but what is it now, if he ends up going through what we see as an intensive chemical process, and it ends up looking like a petroleum-based product at the end? Oh, really a clean ingredient? Or not? You know, is it right? Same as its petroleum derived cousin? Yeah. And chemically, oftentimes, these things are alike. So that Yeah, to be really careful about just making assumptions on ingredients. And though I like the rule, because I know this is about the timer. Everybody goes like, Oh, God, I can't trust the label. And I don't know how to read it. And if it says it's a vegetable, is it not? You know, I do. But the truth is, we have to ask deeper questions. That's where third parties can really come in as a something that we can rely on. And so, I like the rule, if you can pronounce it, it's better. It just doesn't mean it's not true. Yeah. So, we do.
Lisa Beres
Well, we get sodium bicarbonate and things like that, that are actually safe. That sound a little bit, like that sounds like a chemical. And so that is a good point. And I want to switch to we were talking about a little bit of greenwashing that happens obviously with the coconut. I mean, you see it all the time and with fragrances and scents, made with lavender, or whatever that says.
Amy Ziff
That catchy term to look for that you say, okay, it's made with but what else does it mean?
Lisa Beres
Yeah. And that lavender may be synthetic and or they may be one drop of an essential oil of lavender. And the rest of it is synthetic. So, there's a lot of wordsmithing will say that goes on. So, people have become accustomed to green certifications. Would you say that they are equivalent in significance? Are they created equal to the MADE SAFE? How does that differ?
Amy Ziff
So, we like to categorize ourselves as an ecosystem certification. And the reason why we say we're ecosystem versus green. So, I will get back to your question. But by way of description, is that we look at human health priority, obviously, oh, yeah, we also look at how something's going to impact. And we look at this for every ingredient and then put in a product, we look at how it's going to impact and behave in air, water, soil sediment, we're going to look at how it's going to impact aquatic life. So, what happens when it gets into the water table, as well as terrestrial life? So, what happens is it's in landfill? And what if it impacts our flora and fauna and all that. That's what we look at. And so, we consider ourselves not just ego, but in health and ecosystem. And the reason why I say that is because a lot of these green seals that are out there are simply looking at fewer things, your measurements, your parameters aren't all the same, and also not all are holding to the same level of, it's not really performance. Right. But the level of greenness, I don't know what you want to call that. But in the Eco movement, we do talk about right, you guys know, this light green, and then all the way over into the very dark.
Lisa Beres
Shades of green.
Amy Ziff
So, there are shades of considerations for companies, as well. And certifications, too. We like to think of ourselves as setting the gold standard for all of these certifications and hope that they follow and think of ourselves is really that highest rung on the ladder. Oftentimes, we think the other certifications are great stepping stones for grant that might want to come over and go to that next level and get a little bit cleaner. And go to MADE SAFE.
Lisa Beres
Right. It's very confusing for consumers, because you're right, unless they're sort of digging and understand the certifications and the differences, they can naively think that that green leaf and that Green Seal, that certification is covering the health aspects, whereas maybe it's just talking about the recyclability or the lifecycle of the product, and that kind of thing. And we find that Ron, and I find that in homes, with certifications for homes as well, you've got the green certifications that are really dealing with energy efficiency and resource conservation, which is great. But we take it a step further with health. So, we want to get in there and say, how are we going to get all these toxins out of your home? Because you can have a green home that has toxins in it that still met those other standards.
Ron Beres
That's a great point. So how does someone listening identify the correct certifications that are meeting the specifications that they're looking for? So, I'm vegan, for example. So, I'm really against animal cruelty, and I certainly wanted healthy ingredients. What kind of certifications with someone like myself or anyone out there look for? How do you determine what certification is good for you?
Amy Ziff
Yeah, I think that's such an important question. And I also think it's, and I hate to say this, like, hello, shoppers, you have to actually do a little digging in yourself on the difference between what feels right, it's hard, but not all seals can be all things to all people and not all brands can be all things either. And I think that what I try and underscores one, just so you know, Ron, as a vegan, there's a whole vegan category for MADE SAFE so we can tell you some products that are vegan, and we'd like to call that out because we know that that's really important to people. So, it's not just oh, is this free of harmful chemicals. I want to know if there was beeswax in that. Yeah, so it just is another level of scrutiny a different lens.
Lisa Beres
How does that look at me for so I go to the store I picked up a MADE SAFE certified product. How will I know if it's vegan? Well, you guys actually put the word up to look on our Well, you'd have to look at it.
Amy Ziff
We don't put that on pack. Oh, okay, like another layer, if you will. So, we have to do roundups, where we'll say okay, here so you can find them. Here's lots of our vegan products and all of that just because we know that that's something that.
Lisa Beres
But the marketer would probably put that in the verbiage somewhere, right? They probably do.
Amy Ziff
Exactly. And I think for many people, the vegan things to look out for if you're vegan, you're a good label reader.
Lisa Beres
Right? Yeah.
Amy Ziff
You have a pretty good sense. Yeah, nice to be able to call out if the product involves no animal products. But those are things where customers have to prioritize. We're talking about like, kind of rank order. How are you going to differentiate these seals? So, the vegan one is a great point. Similarly, with eco, you can have a product. I like to use actual examples. I think it's really helpful for people to get their head around. Where does this rubber meet the road, but you can have a product made from recycled plastic, for example, and in one aspect that's going to get a good grade on a green score.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, yeah. Like recycled plastic
Amy Ziff
I like recycling too. It's really important. However, when you recycle plastics in this country, we don't have a sophisticated enough recycling system. And so, you're recycling things that actually are harmful. chemicals like phthalates that get into the bin or bisphenols. From different kinds of plastics that validates come from softer plastics, that Elliot's are there to give that flexibility to the plastic it gets thrown in the bin, receipt paper filled with bisphenols. These are BPA people often recognize and know that one, something that we want to avoid other chemicals that kind of come from some of the recycling stream, they all get tossed in. It's like one big cooking stew. And then you end up with non-virgin recycled plastic that actually contains chemicals that you didn't want in there. But you're right, because we can't get them out of the stream yet. Oh, now you have an eco labelled product, something that you think is better. But if that's something that you're putting in your mouth, or could permeate in other ways, maybe that's not the best choice for that use. And that's where it gets really complicated, right? So, in a vegan product, maybe you're going to avoid a product that is renewable, because it comes from an animal source, but you're going to perhaps sub in something that is synthetic. And is that better? Well, it depends is the answer, right? It's very situational. It's very important to understand then the ingredients, the subs, and why you might use recycled plastic in one instance, and that would be a good thing. I would want virgin plastic in another even though I want to see more plastic.
Lisa Beres
I was going to say How about, well, you just hosted the raise the green bar in conjunction with Good Housekeeping which I attended bravo to you. It was really great. I learned a lot. And I love the endocrine disrupting chemicals section. Of course, I knew that would be part I'd like hone in on.
Amy Ziff
Dr. Shanna H. Swam. Just shout out. Yes, sound she is amazing. She�s on our board of supervisors.
Lisa Beres
Amazing, scary, scary. Yeah, I mean, it was like I know she was trying to be like upbeat, but it was like, the question was, what's the future? Are we going to be able to fix this, it's like, we've got to take action? Now, when you're talking about these problems with the recycling, had we done it right from the beginning, we would have to be backtracking and trying to cure these illnesses and get rid of these persistent chemicals in the environment, these chemicals that are in 98% of people who are tested these pee fast chemicals, and all of these endocrine disrupting chemicals that are getting into us now we're having to undo instead of if we had sort of honored nature and really use those materials like glass and stainless steel, and not these cheap, inexpensive chemicals that provided convenience, but are really long term causing so many problems to humans and the wildlife and all of that.
Amy Ziff
Indeed, indeed. And actually, that's why I started MADE SAFE and nontoxic certified was to provide a framework that I felt was missing from the manufacturing side of things, which is we manufacture for performance and aesthetics and all of these Yeah, shelf life. Things. But we don't say at the point of manufacturing, what's going to happen to this when it's done, how's it going to impact people at the point of use, health consequences of these choices were making? And had we done that we live in a different world, but it's not too late. We have to start now we have to implement this. And we have to make it rigorous. You know, it has to be everybody does these assessments. And that's why the work we do behind the scenes with companies is as important as the seal and the certification that we put on the front lines for people because we need to be providing guidance to companies and saying, look, the same old practices that worked 10 years ago don't anymore. I'd like to show that you've given some thought to your inputs, why you're using them why those are sustainable choices, and what you're going to do to shift the market from the ones that we've gotten used to but are no good. We have to hold these companies accountable. And the way we do it is through our purchasing power.
Lisa Beres
Our purchases. Hallelujah. I was just going to say that, Amy and everyone Listening, please. Because it's the holiday season, your shopping, your purchases matter. They're shaping our world. They're shaping the future for your children, when you go the extra mile and buy that natural, organic, that certified product, because the companies that are using the MADE SAFE certified, I know it's a rigorous couple of years it can take to get the certification. Obviously, money's evolved for these companies. So sometimes that cost can be passed on to you. But you're changing the future. When you do support those companies and you buy better you shop smarter, you read the labels, and it's up to us. They listen, right? And I've worked with very large corporations, and they read your emails, they read your social media posts, they take your feedback, and they will respond to it. And that's really where they get that feedback. They're not sitting around the boardroom going, how can we charge more for our products?
Well, that came our wrong. I guess what I meant was, I feel like they're always cutting corners is what I'm saying. I have a lot of products that I like that started off glass, and then next thing you know, they're in a plastic bottle. So, it's always bottom line, bottom line, bottom line. But if we the consumers are saying, hey, you know, we want those glass bottles back, we won't mind paying an extra 50 cents a bottle. They'll listen to that. They'll listen to us. So that's the big takeaway from today's show, I think.
Amy Ziff
Exactly. We can empower change by voting dollars. I love that. And actually, I was just going to make a catalog to say Amazon just launched their climate pledge friendly with MADE SAFE in it, which is a promise to present and support and market, more eco minded products. And I thought, that's an exciting thing. You're thinking about shopping? Look, I think less is more, can you go to a thrift store can you reuse, ask yourself if you can buy better and save and buy less, all of those things. But we know people are going to buy and they're going to gift and so making that a thoughtful, impactful purchases change.
Lisa Beres
That�s wonderful, that's really great with Amazon. So, you can actually see the certifications on a section is that a section within Amazon?
Amy Ziff
Yeah, the climate-pledge friendly on Amazon, there you can see that. And I can see their hundreds of MADE SAFE products on Amazon now and being prioritized.
Ron Beres
So, regulation, that's a big win for everybody, Amy.
Lisa Beres
I mean, that is that's a win. That's a win.
Amy Ziff
It is. We have to get green products out there. Ecosystem friendly products, if you will, out there for everyone at prices for the masses. So, I still got a long way to go. But there are some and I'm excited about those.
Lisa Beres
That's amazing. Okay, so we're aware that your chemists and research team screens each additional ingredient and their sub ingredients to determine if one they buy it bio accumulate and humans to persist in the environment or three if they're generally toxic, or toxic to aquatic life and terrestrial life. Can you elaborate about what you refer to as secondary toxins and tell our listeners, what makes the MADE SAFE certification unique?
Amy Ziff
Yeah, so primary toxins, like the stuff on our bandwidth, those 6500 knows that are just flat out knows, we don't want something that's a what we call a known toxicant. In the products that we use, we think that fundamentally nobody should be using those and that there should be a moratorium on creating more of these and allowing them into use writ large period. So, we would like to see that. And those are really the primary toxins. Those are big promises. The nose, as we like to call them for consumers. And you talked about them earlier, Lisa and Ron, it's the neurotoxins, behavioral toxins.
Lisa Beres
Those pesticides. Yeah, I didn't finish them. So, there's like endangered plants, high risk pesticides, persistent pollutants, chemicals of concern, flame retardants, and when I went to your website, I was like 6,500! Oh my god, I bet there's some on there that would shock everybody that you're like, oh, wow, I didn't think that because that's a lot of chemicals. This is a side note, but do you get pressure from the chemical industry? Do you get threatening emails? Because I know the plastic industry is very defensive.
Amy Ziff
I mean, now that we haven't been going to trade shows and big conferences for two years. I'm like, Yeah, it's so nice. Nobody walks up to me all gruff.
Lisa Beres
You have to wear a bag over your head.
Amy Ziff
Yeah, that's good.
Lisa Beres
You don�t need bodyguards?
Amy Ziff
Yeah, exactly. Not yet anyway. But no, we kind of feel like we're doing our job if people are saying, Hey, why that I want to know more. We're glad if we're making people think and ask questions and ultimately, perhaps change their own policies. So, we'll talk with anyone I think that's a difference between us and other entities out there because we have a whole channel to work with companies that's behind the scenes that just allows them say, hey, come and learn. It's like well I was saying products haven't always been asked to manufacture themselves for human health in the ecosystem. So, we've thrown down the gauntlet. And we know that it takes some time. And if a company is willing to roll up their sleeves and do the work, then we're excited about that, because that's how progress is made, rather than pointing a finger and just saying you are bad.
Lisa Beres
We want improvement.
Amy Ziff
Yeah, we really do. We need, we all collectively need their improvement and need them to do this. I mean, you know.
Lisa Beres
Applaud them. I see people get real nasty sometimes on social media. Well, this big juggernaut of a company has a couple healthy green products and the rest are toxic. Okay. Yes, it's easy to point fingers and say, Gosh, I can't believe they have these toxins. But hey, they're trying, they're coming out with a green line. And the more that we buy those, the more they'll make those and do the switchover, we know that firsthand. We've toured some of these factories. And yeah, so we have to applaud rather than. I agree with that.
Amy Ziff
Encourage Yeah. And I totally forget what the second part of the question was.
Lisa Beres
Oh, I know, the secondary toxins. What is that?
Amy Ziff
So those are kind of more layered in. So those are the things we'll see learn about during our process of doing the kind of evaluation that we do. So, after the obvious knows the ones that we can name, the ones that are on the list, then we're going to go and screen for secondary things that we don't permit. And that's where things get really hard, because there are over 85,000 chemicals in use today, right. And I think the number is probably exceeding 100,000. At this point. I mean, that number is old. And the point of the matter is, we don't have an accurate count, because things just get put into products and the way things or chemicals are registered is really funky. And the EPA estimates about 700 chemicals are added to the market each year, most without any scrutiny. And so, I don't know how many are out there, however, that said, we will evaluate anything that's put before us. And when we do that we see this is not good for humans, it bio accumulates in their system, or it's never going to degrade for all types like the perfluorinated and poly floral alcohol substances that have gotten a lot of Hawk over the last year with my movie dark waters and portrayal of Dow Chemicals and what happened there and what we're still sort of suffering from pollution standpoint.
Lisa Beres
For listeners who don't know what that is, those are your nonstick stain resistant, grease resistant chemicals that you would find in your nonstick cookware, your Gore-Tex, any water repellent kind of clothing. I can't even be in fast food wrappers, your French very wrapper on the inside lining, anything grease, stain, stick resistance. So, think about that. These are called P fast chemicals. We did a whole show on those actually. And I think its episode 33 If anyone wants to go back, but yeah. I know that. Lisa, I know. I'm like I remember that when they're wreaking havoc. Yeah.
Amy Ziff
Almost all our bodies there in almost every water supply. Yeah, in this country, we've got a real problem on our hands. But so, as it relates to secondary toxins, we don't allow the PFS chemistries, but we're seeing them we see them pop up in cosmetics. Now we see that and things like why do you need it? And you're not weird? And cosmetics, yes, or gray? Or whatever. And so why do you want it in the cream that you're putting on your face? We want to get those out. So those are things that we would identify and then say no, not permitted? I mean, we don't really talk to consumers about primary and secondary things. Because this is just like, Oh, yeah. Like, forget it. So here's what I like to say is the bottom line is, if you are looking to buy something next, you can trust a MADE SAFE certified item to be free of harmful pollutants that you don't want to bring into your home, put on your body use with your family, or put out into the world. So yeah, that's sort of a logline I go with because that's a lot easier than�
Lisa Beres
Listing the 6,500 chemicals. And well, I mean, that's the whole point of today's show, is yeah, we're getting nitty gritty. We're talking about a lot of technical, chemical things. But at the end of the day, you don't have time to do this research. Yes, you need to be aware, but you don't have time to do all that. So that's why the MADE SAFE certification. And certifications are really important because you can trust that they vetted that. And they've done all the work and they have the scientists and researchers who have done that for you. Because people are busy. They're juggling jobs and kids and you name it. And so that's what I love about it. I know sometimes I've been at a cocktail party Amy, where I'm just going on my little tangent about endocrine disruptors, and the person's like, yeah, I gotta go.
Ron Beres
I don�t think anyone would leave that conversation.
Lisa Beres
We�d be in the corner all night.
Amy Ziff
We could go chat. My husband's like, you can clear a room like nobody else. Thank you.
Lisa Beres
Oh good, I�m not the only one. We all need to go to the same cocktail party with our organic wine, of course.
Amy Ziff
And then people say, Oh, okay, so what about this and they name their favorite product and then I'm like, your fragrance, or whatever. But it's very exciting to recommend certified candles.
Lisa Beres
You certify candles? Oh, that is so incredible.
Amy Ziff
Yeah, we started working with them about a year ago, I think we launched their first candles and it was so awesome to be able to give gifts and candles because I'm like the person who's like down with fragrance.
Lisa Beres
I know. Yeah.
Ron Beres
So, what's the name of the brand? Again?
Amy Ziff
Fontana Candle Company.
Lisa Beres
Fontana.?
Ron Beres
Okay, shout out.
Lisa Beres
I'm going to put that in the show notes. Because you're right. It's the holidays, everyone's buying candles, air fresheners, all the things they shouldn't be sending their homes with. And people same thing, Amy, it's like, well, is this candle, okay? And I'm like, hey, at the end of the day, it needs to say 100% essential oils are unscented because there's nothing healthy in between, you're going to have a load of synthetic fragrances polluting your house yet smells good. But you'll notice your nose gets itchy, your throat gets scratchy. You notice those reactions from those synthetic chemicals as they volatize into the air?
Amy Ziff
That's right. What Yeah, wick What is it made of? Yeah, all of those things are exactly. They're going off there in your air. And I always say this to be able to, if you feel your home needs some kind of scent masking some plug in a candle, a sign a login spray? Yeah, the question you really want to be asking is what's going on in my house? Do I have a mold issue? Yeah, I have my Sunday house going on? Yeah, right, that I need to deal with, because you're trying to mask something go to the real root of the problem. And deal with that.
Lisa Beres
I mean, I think our bodies today are symbiotic to what's happening in the world. And in the environment, it's exact same thing. So, when people are masking their health issues with medication, they're popping pills, they're numbing themselves out, they're giving themselves energy with coffee every day, everything's masks, masks, masks. And then we see it also like you just talking about in the home, masking, smells, masking all of this, because people don't want to take the time to dig in there and get to the root. And also our society, our medical system really just wasn't built on that it wasn't built on like, Hey, how about if we actually heal you and figure out what is causing this depression instead of putting you on anti-anxiety or whatever, you know, not saying not to do that? Check with your doctor. But yeah, let's get to the root of all of it. Let's get to the root of all of that. It's so much cheaper. In the end, it'll save you so much money, and it'll save you so much time. That little effort upfront really well.
Ron Beres
Well said. Amy, quick question. Can you explain what the precautionary principle is, and its significance?
Amy Ziff
Sure. One of the things that differentiates MADE SAFE is in fact, our use of the precautionary principle. This is really where if you want to think about it, if there are unanswered questions when we're looking at chemical and input a substance, and we just don't have enough information, maybe that the studies haven't been done. So, nobody has this information. Oftentimes people say, Well, it seems fine, because nothing seems wrong with it. Right? We don't know. So, we'll Greenlight it. Well, let me say if we say, we're going to exercise the precautionary principle. That means when in doubt, it's a no go. This flips the entire model of how things are done in the US. Guys set it at the outset, where we live in a world where chemicals are innocent until proven guilty. And the way they're often proven guilty is through consumer lawsuit. It takes a long, long, long, long, long, long, long time, and a lot of money to get to that point. It's really hard. So instead, we start if we don't know, we don't permit it. And we tell every company we work with, look, we don't know enough about this. So, we're not permitting it. But if you can bring us new information science that we can use, yeah, we're willing to reevaluate and look at it. So, we're very open in that regard. But we just got to take the guesswork out of it. And we've got to stop giving leeway where it isn't deserved. And that's really the crux of the precautionary principle is just to say, let's slow down. Let's take caution. And let's not allow things.
Lisa Beres
Why don't we call it the common sense, the common sense principle?
Amy Ziff
I like that.
Lisa Beres
It's just as you're saying, and it's like, how are we not doing that? Right? It gets very political and the money trail gets very involved in all of that.
Amy Ziff
So yeah, you got to know that there are a lot of people out there lobbying for the chemical industry as they outnumber us. And they outspend. Yeah, consumers, how much money do you put behind lobbying for safe ingredients?
Lisa Beres
Right? Yeah. Great point. Yeah. So where can our audience find an update list of all the MADE SAFE certified products?
Amy Ziff
They can go to www.MADE SAFE.org. And search by product search by brand. And look at the listings, that's probably the best thing to do is look at my brand all the list of all of their products that's always up to date and accurate for people.
Lisa Beres
Could you look up, say by like lipsticks, and then it�ll pull all those?
Amy Ziff
We don�t do lipstick, because those are really complicated. So, we haven't done any lipstick, some lip balm, lip, colors are involved. Color cosmetics are really tricky color area, a lot of talk skins, even when they're made from the earth. Because most people probably know that the kale you grow in your garden is contaminated with heavy metals, because they're out there in our air, and they come down in the ocean and rain and they soak into the soil, and then they get absorbed by some plants more than others. And so, we've created a bit of a dirty environment, and we have our work to do. Yeah, that makes certain things harder than others.
Lisa Beres
Okay, so a company XYZ comes to you. And they have, say, 10 cleaning products in their arsenal. Obviously, each one has to be vetted for its own certification, right? So, you could have a company that has maybe two products certified, but the rest not?
Amy Ziff
That�s right. It�s possible to certify just a couple of things and all that, you know, no shame in that. I think, in fact, we're excited about companies who are willing to put in the time and get there. And we think, and our position is always those two products are going to start to outperform the others because that certification is a meaningful to consumers. It's the only one of its kind is so powerful. So, we think they'll work harder on getting the rest of the cadre of ingredients in line and do that, even if it takes time. And we see companies do that all the time. And that is super exciting.
Lisa Beres
Oh, awesome. And my next part of that question, are you working on an app? Do you think you'll have an app for shoppers?
Amy Ziff
You know, we get asked that all the time. And while I would love to say yes, the reality is we're trying to stay in our lane, but we know our ingredients and what we want to do and where we want to apply. Our focus is helping companies do better and get better and certify the products that are out there. And we think that there are lots of companies who could do an app better than we could, frankly.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, you're right. It's a whole other animal. Yeah.
Amy Ziff
Well, like I'm doing that we're not a tech company. Yeah. Okay.
Ron Beres
Okay. Good. How long is the MADE SAFE certification valid for once it's approved? So, in question me, do all the certifications operate this way?
Amy Ziff
I can only speak for MADE SAFE. That's an excellent question. Should everybody needs to, because if it's at all what we see things change, even when they're not supposed to. And when companies have bi signed agreement, they have to tell us when something is changed, because not all companies on their manufacturing, sometimes things get changed out even annual compliance. So, we can see that. So, we can see Oh, did you switch your sugarcane source? Oh, your call? Oh, do you? Whatever, because not all glycols are the same. Some are. Some aren't. We don't permit the GMOs. So, we want to look at that kind of stuff, right? And see all those changes. So, we have a mechanism to perform annual compliance. And so, you get the certification. And that theoretically rolls over as long as you maintain the work that you're required to do to keep the certification.
Ron Beres
Thank goodness MADE SAFE is so thorough.
Lisa Beres
Yay MADE SAFE. Okay. So, we talked about the absolute problem. And I want to give listeners a little background. Why do we have so many chemicals? Because back in was in 1976, the Toxic Substances Control Act, grandfathered in 1,000s and 1,000s of chemicals without testing without proper testing. So, when Amy mentioned 86,000, and counting that we have, like registered right with the EPA.
Amy Ziff
And that�s just the EPA, and then the FDA has a rule on the books from 1938, which governs food drugs and the personal care. This is part of why I was like, Oh, if it's vastly confusing, because EPA could make one choice on some element of chemistry, but FDA could theoretically have a different one. Yeah. And FDA has grace. And that's a whole black box in and of itself with companies are self-regulating what they can put in there. And so, and grace means generally recognized as safe, which is not necessarily even so we can determine that for themselves.
Lisa Beres
Right? They're self-policing, right? I mean, they're really self-policing. I mean, we did an episode with a mattress company with the flame retardants. We talked about the flame retardants and all that, and I mean, it's self-policing. It's actually shocking when consumers learn that, you know, yeah, it's really, it's eye opening. So, in addition to looking for reputable third-party certifications, like MADE SAFE, what are some ingredients our listeners should be aware of, and avoiding their home and personal care products? Just some of the biggies some of the big culprits?
Amy Ziff
Yes. So, I like to throw them into categories to get people's capacity to get their head around it. We mentioned a few of these, so I'll repeat them. But we talked about the flame retardant chemicals, those are persistent pollutants, they are harmful, they stick around in your house. And you've got everybody has them. I tried to shop for furniture without any of them, but I use electronics. And they're there. Yeah, as much as we can minimize them. And as much as we can force industry to think about alternatives. It is really important. I am passionate about not sleeping on flame retardants. Because when you sleep, you're doing your rest and your rejuvenation and actually your detoxification work. So, you don't want to be constantly barraged with more chemicals. So, flame retardants, that's a big call of chemistry, we want to avoid. The perfluorinated chemistry is also, PFAS we want to avoid. See your show on that one, because that'll give you.
Lisa Beres
Episode 33. It's with a scientist from the Environmental Working Group and we get really down and dirty on PFAS.
Amy Ziff
And my biggest pet peeve on PFAS is that it's in dental floss, if you are using something that makes a claim to be slippery or glide keyword for perfluorinated chemistry in there, you can live without it. And same with your nonstick and stain resistant clothing. I don't like having that on my person. I definitely on the cookware. So those are another big category. Besides, now you think about pesticides being in the food, and they certainly are but they're also in your clothing. And they're also in your personal care. So, looking for products without pesticides is important when you can do it. Those pesticides are some of the most harmful chemicals that we have.
Ron Beres
Because people don't think this but you know, cotton is the largest crop produced right out there. And so, 25% of pesticides are coming from the cotton itself that we're getting.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, yeah, exactly. A lot of people I mean cotton is natural so people think they're doing making a healthy choice when they sleep on cotton or wear cotton. But if it's not organic, it's not certified organic. It's been treated with pesticides. Right and your coffee. I think there's a lot of ways we get so much pesticide exposure, unknowingly. Yeah, even your tap water if you're not filtering your tap water properly, because you could be filtering your tap water and still getting pesticide in your body if you don't have the proper filtration that's removing that particular type of pesticide. So yeah, I would totally agree.
Amy Ziff
Atrazine and Roundup are two of the most common, or glyphosate, the most commonly used pesticides in their food and our water and infiltrating like those perfluorinated chemistries, they're out there. And so, they make their way into our homes through our drinking water. So that's a really important point. Yeah, organic whenever you can in your food, using some kind of filtration anything is better than none on the water.
Lisa Beres
Anything is better than nothing on this whole thing, right? Because I know when I started it's overwhelming, right? Because we're talking about every part of your life right now, we're talking about your air your water, your bedding, your personal care, your household care your candles, we pretty much covered the gamut. And that can be overwhelming for people of course Brian and I that's what we do. We teach people baby steps. Thank you. We even have a program shout out. I helped the basis of all the babies Academy well because I was one of these people who got sick and said, Oh my god, how am I going to get rid of all these chemicals once I discovered this is too much so I just took it one step at a time started with my bedding because you're right we spent eight hours plus a night there and that's a really vulnerable time for our body and a time we want to rest to recoup so if we can pay just start with the bedroom and then just make your way little by little by little this is not Rome wasn't built in a day. This isn't going to happen overnight.
Amy Ziff
But I think I'd want anyone to take away it's matters because every removal is something your body doesn't have to process it delay through and so just think of it that way. This is a method of subtraction and that wins that yes up to be sum total I subscribe to a theory called the total load theory and that means that your body can only handle so much yeah this load of toxins that we're giving it everyone that you eliminate helps it there
Lisa Beres
Yes right.
Amy Ziff
Yeah, I love your, Rome wasn't built in a day. You don't have to do at all. And I think a wonderful place to start aside from those categories that we just named would be fragrance. We touched on that with candles. But fragrance is a backdoor for hundreds if not 1000s of chemicals.
Lisa Beres
It�s the gateway chemical, it's the gateway. I
Amy Ziff
And it's one of the hardest ones to get rid of. Because our everything true sense is so important to us it's locks into memory, it locks into taste, it locks into so many things, which is why companies want to have a signature scent. That's what you're going to recognize them for. But it's important for us to kind of pull back on the fragrance and look for it.
Lisa Beres
Please get rid of your dryer sheets, listeners, oh my god get those wool dryer balls, they work better. And they're better for you and they don't smell I cannot stand when I am in the neighborhood to have the garage door open and I can smell people's dryer sheets. So nauseous. I don't want to be polluted with your fragrance.
Ron Beres
We should be neighbors, right?
Amy Ziff
Neighbors and at each other's parties.
Lisa Beres
We'd never go, we'd never take the dogs in if we saw each other walking.
Ron Beres
The party would never end. Before this ends, can you leave our listeners with some resources to learn more about chemicals to avoid? So, we've talked about things but what are some resources out there?
Amy Ziff
Absolutely. Well, obviously I would say visit medsafe.org We have a lot of information for people, the banned list is pretty heavy. Don't start there.
Lisa Beres
Don't even go there when you start.
Amy Ziff
Something we call product profiles and chemical call outs. And those are just really visual easily broken down, like what's in this hand soap, what's in the sanitizer, or what do I look forward to do better, we will make suggestions and sort of tweaks to help point you in the right direction. So those are a really great place to start. And I always say start with whatever it is you need to buy next, as I said, so just don't put too much pressure on yourself. Other places you can go to learn about this. I love Women's Voices for the Earth. They have amazing information. And they're a great resource. They're nonprofit we work with often. Couple of others, I'd like to suggest people go to Clean and Healthy New York.
Lisa Beres
I�ll put these in the show notes. Guys, okay.
Amy Ziff
Also, the Campaign for Safe Cosmetics, which is run out of the Breast Cancer Prevention Partners. Those are all websites that are very consumer friendly. They're run by nonprofits, they don't have a horse in this race, as I like to say they're neutral. And so, they're going to do a lot of really great work educating and informing people about what are these things? What are the issues?
Lisa Beres
Independent third parties, like you said. What was the New York again, called?
Amy Ziff
Clean and Healthy New York.
Lisa Beres
Oh, never heard of that. One.
Amy Ziff
Clean and healthy NY dot org.
Lisa Beres
Okay, perfect. I'll put that in the show notes days. And at the top of the show, you mentioned that you hope one day to work yourself out of existence, that there wouldn't be a need for the certification anymore, when ultimately every product on shelves is made with safe ingredients. Hallelujah. Do you see this happening in the future? If so, when?
Amy Ziff
Well, I'll tell you what I do see happening. And it's so exciting to me is the companies that we work with, they take our reports and our information back to their manufacturers and their suppliers. And we're seeing changes happen when they say no, we actually can't use that surfactant or No, doesn't fly MADE SAFE. And it gets upstream that whole part of the process that consumers tend not to think about but which is really crucial. And it allows companies to push back, and then they come back to us next time with a new product. And they're like, I think you're going to really love this incredible change is happening all yes, a spectrum. So that's tremendously exciting. We do see this shift happening. And that's just incredibly rewarding to see that kind of progress and hear that kind of feedback, we see the difference on both ends, and then from consumers. And at this point, we've certified over 3,000 items. So, we're really showing.
Lisa Beres
Yeah, great job. I was going to ask you how many so 3,000 That's amazing. How many years has that taken?
Amy Ziff
Six. We�ve been in the market six year. So, we're not look, we're independent. So, would have been a lot easier if we had taken money from a big organization and capitulated on some of our standards. And yeah, batten out the door. We don't do that. We're the real deal. So, it's harder and you grow more slowly and organically. Yeah, it's tremendously exciting to be doing that and to get more companies coming all the time. But look, 3,000 is a teeny number of what's out there, right homes of CPG products, consumer packaged goods, products, and yeah apparel and so I think I feel like in many ways, we're just at the outset. But we are forcing other seals to get tighter on their and less level their own standards. We're doing our job.
Ron Beres
You are.
Lisa Beres
You had mentioned resources. And you mentioned I forget the name of your graphics. They're kind of little mini infographics. I've seen them on your Instagram. So, if you're on Instagram listeners, don't find them MADE SAFE. You guys have the cutest, MADE SAFE HQ, you have just little square, like mini infographics on a particular topic. So, it might be hand sanitizers, it might be laundry detergent, it might be a mattress, and they're really digestible. They're really easy to see and you're like, Whoa, these are the five things in the mattress that I don't want. These are the three things in the hand sanitizer. And so, I think that's a great resource to I'm going to put your Instagram handle in the show notes as to because those have helped me a lot, too.
Amy Ziff
Oh good, we love hearing from people. What are you having trouble with? What is the best thing you found? And asked your companies. That's the best thing somebody could do for us as a small organization is go to your favorite product company and say why aren't you MADE SAFE?
Lisa Beres
Why aren't you doing better?
Amy Ziff
You say you're doing this; you claim to be green, then get MADE SAFE. Proof is in the pudding. We want to see that because that's the only way we fundamentally really know. And so that's huge, because we get inquiries coming to ask from companies to say, we heard about this on our site.
Lisa Beres
We�ve been getting nagged by our customers. Yeah.
Ron Beres
Amy, I love the name, MADE SAFE.
Lisa Beres
Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking you�ve got to encompass a lot of stuff in there.
Amy Ziff
Safe ingredients. That's what it comes down to right now.
Lisa Beres
This started for you. You're a mother, right? You have how many kids?
Amy Ziff
I have three kids. Three kids. Yeah, I got into this because I was an internet entrepreneur. I wasn't doing anything with regard to better chemicals. I thought I considered myself an ecoista. And then I took my twins home from the hospital and they were allergic to things I didn't know you could be allergic to and have a master's in journalism. And I just started researching. I was like, holy moly. Yeah, so much stuff that can go into our products without any kind of rules or regulation. And we don't know and we presume that they are safe. I read Yeah. Somebody must be looking at that. And right. No advances No, there. Yeah. So, then you believe the marketing hype. And sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. And there's that if we have organic for food as the system by which we understand how something was grown? Why do we not have that for the rest of the stuff, right, bring into our homes, we've made really good money on these things. We should have an understanding of what it was made with and whether or not that meets our values.
Ron Beres
MADE SAFE was born, right?
Lisa Beres
MADE SAFE was born.
Ron Beres
Thank you so much for joining us today. You weren't just incredible.
Lisa Beres
Yes. And Amy, a big shout out to you Nontoxic Certified, MADE SAFE, and for your passion to create a better and safer world for all of us and the future generations. Thank you.
Ron Beres
To learn more about the MADE SAFE certification visit MADESAFE.org where you can find trusted products and find a banned list which contains 6,500 substances that are prohibited from use in MADE SAFE certified products.
Lisa Beres
And friends, thank you for joining us today. Please shop safely for your loved ones by choosing products that won't cause harm to people, pets or the planet. And be sure to visit random lisa.com forward slash podcast for all the links in the show notes. And we will see you next week!
Ron Beres
Bye, everyone.
Amy Ziff
Bye. Thanks for having me again. Thanks for your work.
Narrator
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