43: MOLD: Signs, Symptoms & Solutions

Narrator

How would you like to improve your health and keep your family safe? You're listening to the healthy home hacks podcast where we firmly believe enjoying optimal health shouldn't be a luxury healthy home authorities and husband and wife team Ron and Lisa will help you create a home environment that will level up your health. It's time to hear from the experts. listen in on honest conversations and gain the best tips and advice. If you're ready to dive in and improve your well-being and increase your energy, you're in the right place. All right, here are your hosts, Val biologists, authors, media darlings, vicarious vegans and avocado aficionados. Ron and Lisa Beres.

Ron Beres

�The American people have a right to air the day and their children can breathe without fear.� Lyndon Baines Johnson

Lisa Beres

Just hearing the word mold sends shivers down most people spine. And for good reason. More than 100,000 mold species have been identified. Exposure to mold can be linked to negative health effects that reads like a NyQuil commercial such as sneezing, itching, runny nose, congestion and dry skin. Depending on the type of mold and the health status of the person. Many molds produce airborne spores that act as allergens. In fact, mold spores can cause health issues by triggering allergies or asthma attacks, as spores enter the lungs. But not all mold is toxic. In fact, it's the chemical metabolic byproducts called mycotoxins not the mold spores themselves that cause harm and certain types of mold.

Ron Beres

You're absolutely right, Lisa. In fact, we are 40% more likely to have asthma when living in damp or a moldy house. And today more so than ever as American spends an average of 90% of their time in doors.

Lisa Beres

So you're probably wondering what if that mold or fungus that appears is fuzzy spots and a variety of colors including green, gray or black? are causing harm to you or your loved ones? or pets for that matter? If you've ever wondered which molds are dangerous and which are merely unsightly, then you are in the right place.

Ron Beres

Someone who is going to shed the light on this topic is our guest today Michael Rubino. Michael is an international mold remediation expert with nearly a decade of field experience working with individuals who are immune compromised to improve the air quality in their homes. He is a console certified mold remediator by IICRC, and ACAC, and a contributing member sponsor and speaker for the indoor air quality Association. He works with roughly 75 to 100 families each year as they return to their homes after mold exposure. Michael is the founder and CEO of All American Restoration, and the author of the mold medic an expert's guide on mold removal. Welcome to the show, Michael.

Michael Rubino

Thanks for having me, guys.

Lisa Beres

Thank you for being here. We are so happy to have you joining us today to discuss a very important topic when it comes to the health of our homes and our businesses and our offices and all the structures that we are in. So, Michael, I know everybody is chomping at the bit to get into this topic. Let's get started. Can you tell our listeners What led you down this path to become a mold expert in the first place?

Michael Rubino

What do you mean, everyone doesn't just wake up and say I want to be a mold expert? Yeah, I mean, basically, I've been a rock construction my entire life. My father's been a general contractor. Since I'm five years old. And naturally growing up around construction, you pick up a couple things. When I decided to be involved in the family business growing up as a kid, I would go to job sites learn as much as I can soak it up like a sponge. And I think really is when Hurricane Sandy happened because this from the northeast. And that's when I really started seeing the devastating effects of mold. Whenever you have this like big national event. People come from all over the place. really picking people off the streets and going to work right is an opportunity to make money. And that's when you really start to see the mistakes that happen. And for seven years thereafter, I was still re remediating homes that were supposedly remediated. And I was noticing people were sick. And so that was interesting for me because I never really noticed that people can be sick before from mold exposure. And that's when I really started to kind of connect the dots. And after just specifically working with people who are sensitive or immune compromised. I started to become like the mold whisperer, if you will, or the mold medic, right? And oh, like that, then everybody who was sick started to contact me and just kind of took on a life of its own. And now I realize that I'm not going to solve this problem one house at a time, I got to get the information out there. And that's when I started writing the book, the mold medic that's now available.

Lisa Beres

Wow, I love that. That's actually how we got into our business too, was I had started off doing consultations, and said, Gosh, there's just too many people that need this information, we're going to have to take this to a national platform. And here we are today and having great experts like you shedding light on these important topics. I cannot tell you how many readers right into us with mold issues or suspecting mold or ailments that they haven't connected to the mold yet. So, it's very common in all parts of the country. I know most of us associated with high humidity areas, but let's be honest, mold can be anywhere, depending on the situation.

Ron Beres

Yes, Michael, off topic here. So, you're a five-year-old, and you have your own hard hat.

Lisa Beres

A baby hard hat?

Michael Rubino

Oh, you know, that's a good question. I did not have a baby hard hat, actually. So, I came from an era where there were no seatbelts in cars. And so, you just threw your kid in the backseat and shuffled around the car. And life is a lot different now than it was then. So now you should have a hardhat for your five-year-old if you're bringing them on site.

Ron Beres

Well, very good. So that was the inspiration behind your book, the Mold Medic, right, it was the actual hurricane itself.

Michael Rubino

I think so just watching the devastating effects that the hurricane had and seeing people being sick, I started to realize that there's an industry wide problem. And really what it comes down to is, I feel like the industry of the 50,000 remediation companies there are they're doing 1/3 of the job, they're missing two thirds of what they need to be doing. And I think that's why people who are sensitive to mold are still sick after remediation, it's because they're missing two thirds of what needs to be done. And basically, what I've realized is this, you have water damage that comes in right, this creates the opportunity for mold to grow. And you have mold growing and colonizing. Let's say it's on a wall, then you have what that mold is producing. As you mentioned earlier in the introduction to the show, right mycotoxins mold spores that also circulates around the house creates finds new opportunity where water is intruding, and it just creates more and more mold. So, most companies, and this is only because when you get your license or your certification, this is what you're being told that you just remove the wall and you spray some chemicals, and your job is done. Right. So, we just talked about that. Now it's like, well, what about correcting the conditions that allowed mold to grow in the first place? That's the big missing piece, otherwise, the mold is going to come back? The industry misses that a lot. Well, what about all the mycotoxins are the mold spores that are now circulating around your house? Are we just going to leave those there? Well, that's what a lot of people do. Yeah. And so, it's become this cash cow where you come in, you rip stuff out, you spray some chemicals, and you leave. And you're not really solving the full true problem. Yeah. Now, as I started diving into the science of it, I was like, there's a big need here for some change.

Lisa Beres

That's so true. It makes me think of the medical industry to where it's a lot about just treating the symptoms and never getting to the root cause. And it's this perpetual cycle of people staying sick. And treating someone just had a conversation yesterday with someone who's like, Oh, I have these particular skin issues, and they're putting me on these meds. And I'm like, Yeah, but you're not really getting rid of the skin issue. You're just treating it. So, you're going to continue to have this issue and it's going to lead to other issues. So we know that mold species are generally categorized as one of three types, there's allergenic molds, pathogenic molds, toxigenic, molds, and a lot of people think that they should just douse the visible mold that they see in their home with bleach, I cannot tell you how many times we get asked this. And then they say, boom, we're done with it. We don't see the mold. So, it must be God. do you suggest this? And if someone thinks they have mold, right now, one of our listeners, what should they do?

Michael Rubino

Yeah, I do not suggest that you can even dive in. Go on Google right now type in EPA, space, bleach space mold, enter, right? You're going to pull up EPA website that even the EPA says do not use bleach for mold. And what I noticed that's interesting about that is they have a Please note, and it says biocides are fungicides, these chemicals, right? They kill mold, but even dead mold can be problematic for somebody whose immune compromised. So, it's interesting.

Lisa Beres

Well, that's really important, Michael, thank you for stating that. People don't realize that you killed the mold, but you still have the mold spores present unless you've really completely cleaned up and remove them.

Michael Rubino

Yeah, I mean, if a skunk enters your house and you shoot the skunk, yeah, you just leave the skunk on the floor. It's dead, but it's there. Right? It's decomposing. You want to get rid of it. Right. With anything. It's a living organism. And I think people forget that they think I go, it's like, you spray some stuff, it dissolves right and it's gone. That's not how it works, you can dissolve the outer protein layer of the molecule itself, actually making it even smaller particulate. But now again, it's still there, it still gets up in your breathing zone and enters the body, and it causes the debilitating effects. So, you want to remove it from the environment, not just kill it. Right? Okay, kill and remove.

Lisa Beres

I feel like this is a Dateline episode.

Michael Rubino

You're identifying the source, basically, you're cleaning up the source, you're also making sure the air quality is appropriately cleaned from the mycotoxins that might be on the very small particles of dust and tiny pieces of wallpaper floating around, that can easily be inhaled. That's part of the issue as to why you're focused on air quality after remediate the okay. Should people focus on air quality when it comes to optimizing their health? Then? Would you say that's important? Oh, yeah, I mean, we take 20,000 breaths per day, right? So, the air that we breathe could not be more important. As a matter of fact, I mean, we're consuming more air than we are water food, right? So why isn't that at the top of our list, we're looking at optimizing our health, instead of not on our list at all, it should be the number one thing we look at, absolutely, this is our sweet spot to is just cleaning up the air in your home and babies talking about babies that eat more food and breathe more air, pound for pound than adults. And even children coming into this world are really getting exposed to biological contaminants like we're talking about today. But also, all of these chemical contaminants are VOC�s and volatile organic compounds and cancer-causing chemicals that are permeating our homes today, our homes are really a toxic brew. And I'm glad we're diving into the biological part of it, because on this show, we get a lot into the chemicals. But this is the biological aspect. And something that we always tell our readers is what you can't see can hurt you. And you're talking about these mold spores that are now at this point non visible to the naked eye that are getting perming some of them permeating our air, some of them aren't. And like your example of you killed them old, maybe even you removed it, but you could still be inhaling some of the airborne mold if you're not taking precautions of putting in an air purifier. And we're going to get into that, too, a little bit further on in the show. No, Michael, I think our listeners would love to know, like, in a very basic level, what say this person has what they think is a mold problem their house, they've identified some sort of water leak. And I think it's more than not feeling so great. What would you do? Step one, the first diagnosis situation they call into the home? And what would be your process? So, I would say, and I'm going to recommend this mainly because it kind of puts things into perspective. I would say, I don't know if you guys have heard this before, but there's something called an ERMI test. Really with that? Yes, we are. So, what it does, it tests the dust, right, and it finds out what contaminants are there. And I think this is a really good elementary first step. For somebody who thinks maybe they have a problem, it's going to give you basically a guidance of what's there, it's not going to tell you where it's coming from, it's not going to help you develop a project plan of actually how to deal with the mold. But now you know, it's there, are you exempt, there's toxigenic, pathogenic allergenic molds, all of them, right. And it kind of gives you a clue of what is getting kicked up into my breathing zone. And having that ability to enter the body or what is being redistributed to the H vac system, the lungs of the home, that's again, allowing that opportunity to enter the body. So, I think that's a really good first step. And if you see some alarming results there, at that point, I would say call on a professional do what's called a Mold Inspection, to do additional testing to help identify where it's coming from what the root causes are, so that you can put a project plan together who eradicated once and for all. Yeah, that's a great point. And the army test is basically like you said, it's a vacuum situation, you can use your own vacuum, right? You use like a sock or kind of a bag, take the dust collection sample. Now, Michael, not all mold would show up in that sample, correct? I mean, you might have a heavy wet mold that might not get airborne and be in the dust. So, do you always recommend a surface and an airborne test? Well, I think the airborne and like the swabs or tape lifts, I think that really comes into play more on the investigation side in terms of trying to figure out where the problems are. I think the ERMIa again, is just like this is a quick snapshot of what's potentially going on in your home. Because this is what settling into the dust, right? So, it's obviously aerosolized at some point as it's being generated, and then it falls out into the dust. And this is exactly what gets circled up as you walk through a room, right, you're going to change the air pressure, you're going to kick stuff up that's collected in the dust as your age facts and turns on windows open, doors opening closed, right? All of this causes air to convect and make these things enter our breathing zone. I think it's a really good snapshot and then yes, you want a Mold Inspection company that's going to come out and do the right air testing to find out where it's all coming from swabs and tape lifts, where appropriate to identify, is that stain on the wall mold? Or did it dry up fast enough? Right? And those things really help put together a project plan?

Lisa Beres

Oh, yeah, you need a good plan. I agree with that. And then we get asked this all the time. And I always tell readers, if it's under 10 square feet, right rule of thumb, if your mold the visible mold is under 10 square feet, you should be able to take that into your own hands if the mold. Although I know that's not really always the case, but that is kind of the general rule of thumb. If your mold situation is bigger than that, then you bring in the pros like yourself to remediate. And give us a little rundown of what mold needs to survive. Well, mold definitely needs a source of moisture. And it needs an organic food source such as dust, right or dry,

Lisa Beres

Not organic strawberries, we're not talking organic, produce.

Michael Rubino

We're just talking about like organic compounds here. Yeah, things that are porous, that it can actually feed off of, and mold has roots called hyphae. So, they grow into things. So, there's a difference between mold that you can see developing on a piece of glass, which it happens. And when it does, it's only because the glass is dusty, and it has that food source to be able to feed off of. But there's a very big difference of because at that point, it's non porous, you can wipe it right off the surface. When it's actually growing into your wall, or your insulation or something like that, you have to physically remove it, the roots have already gone in and compromise it, wiping it away would be like cutting the weed off at the stem not pulling its roots out. It's just going to come right back. So, it's really important to kind of know what it is that you're dealing with. Is it growing on a non-porous surface on a porous surface? And how do I attack it from a situational standpoint?

Lisa Beres

Okay. And we're talking about wood, paper carpet, of course, mold can grow and so but we're really talking about substances in your home. What's the most common area you find mold growing from carpet or walls? wallboard? What would you say?

Michael Rubino

I will say the number one hidden source of mold is going to be a crawlspace or an attic. Okay, those are typically the highest levels because you never go there, right. So, you often neglect them. If issues happen, you don't typically become aware of them unless they're like physically bleeding through the ceiling, because they're neglected and things like that you have trapped moisture or humidity, all those things contribute to mold on the inside of the home. And areas that you typically see every day, most of the time, you're going to see it either developing on a ceiling or a wall. That's going to be your kind of first clue as to saying, hey, there's definitely water intrusion here. I got to take care of that.

Lisa Beres

Yeah. And you may or may not see that visible sign.

Ron Beres

And then off topic, what's been one of your favorite stories in a crawlspace, or attic that you can share with us? I'm sure you've seen crazy things.

Michael Rubino

In Brooklyn, in a basement apartment, one of my favorite stories, and only because it's got a really cool visual, there was mushrooms growing on the wall. I walked into this place; he was 100% of time he spoke absolutely no English. And while I'm an Italian American Italian descent, I speak zero Italian. I instantly got my Google Translate going, and I'm communicating with him through that. And I'm explaining to him like, this is really bad. You got to get out of there. There's mold there. And he's like, I sleep right there. It's fine. I'm like, you have mushrooms growing on your wall. This is beyond like just I have a little bit of mold. I mean, the levels are some of the highest levels I've ever seen in person, right, wow. And we added basically got the entire place to fix it. There was water traveled all the way down through all the walls. It was a nightmare. And then the insurance company had insurance coverage, but he didn't have enough coverage. So, there was this whole barrier of like me communicating with the insurance company and then him explaining to him that he's got to come out of pocket and it was just almost a circus. I think he was a guy that saved every single penny he ever had come across in his life. I almost wondered if the money came from underneath his mattress. That's the guy he was Yeah, he's like, here it is fix it. So, we finally got to fixing it. It was such a visual experience to say like, Okay, I'm This place is going to go from mushrooms growing on the wall, and you don't have to burn this thing down. And I can actually get this place fixed. And so, after I accomplish that, I'm like, well, there's nothing that I can do at this point.

Lisa Beres

Then you became the Mold Medic, you earned your badge. That is crazy. I know. There are crazy stories. I mean, we've heard people having fuzz row out of their shoes in their closet. Oh, yeah. Especially. I mean, we're really talking about a moisture problem, right? I mean, always with mold. You've got to follow the trail, what's feeding out what's the source of not just the food as it's feeding on, but the moisture because it can't survive without that. And then you had talked about at the top of the show, eliminating that problem, whether it's a leak or a faulty gutter system outside or whatever it is that's continually recreating this moisture problem. So, something that we get asked a lot too is, what is that growing around my shower? Is that mold? Is it toxic? Is it unhealthy? What should I do about it? What do you suggest when people see the green fuzz around their shower?

Michael Rubino

So, the number one mold that's typically found in people's homes, I would say most common anyway is going to be Aspergillus, Aspergillus Penicillium, because that's how it's classified. So, we don't really know the breakdown of that. When you do an air test or a swab test. That's typically what you're going to pick up. Now if you zoom out of it. Aspergillus is part of the ASCO by Kota kingdom, which also happens to be what powdery mildew is also part of the ASCO my Kota kingdom that typically grows on plants. That's why you get that mildew, the word mildew from we've grown into this customary, I guess, as some, if you will, of saying, you know, it's just mildew. It's not mold, both. mildew is just another form of both right if we're being Frank and actual, yeah, about the science of things. And so, I think that when most people see what they consider mildew in their home is probably Aspergillus, because Aspergillus can be white and fuzzy green and fuzzy brown, black, it can be pretty much any of the colors that you typically would see with mold. Is that dangerous? Well, it's an allergenic type of mold. But the real kicker is Aspergillus can produce mycotoxins. So that's where things get tricky, right? Because it can be toxic, it's not always toxic, right. If for whatever reason, it happens to be producing mycotoxins and we don't know a whole lot about that other than it's a self-defense mechanism by certain species of molds. If it for whatever reason starts producing mycotoxins it can become a problem not to be scary or alarming. I just think that if you see mold, just do your due diligence to get rid of it and keep it down. Because mold isn't only scary when it's actively growing inside of our homes, it's not scary when it just naturally comes into our house from outside. It is part of our ecosystem. We're not looking to build bubbles around our houses, we're just looking to keep our environment under control.

Lisa Beres

Okay, that was a really good point. A lot of people freak out, they do, they get really panicked when they see mold, or even hear the word mold. And I think that's a great point, it's outside. And when you do measurements, right, you're always measuring the inside levels against the outside levels, because we have naturally ambient mold in the air. And so, you're going to have mold levels in your home, we're just talking about when those levels get out of control, and they're higher than the outside, and they're now starting to cause harm, and you'd mentioned the allergenic molds. So, you have to have an allergy to the mold to even have a physical response to that not everybody is allergic, correct?

Michael Rubino

Yeah, it's different for everybody, right? I mean, certain people are carriers of the HLADR gene, which is we consider the mold gene. And when those people, the HLADR gene,

Ron Beres

What percentage of people have it?

Michael Rubino

They say it's somewhere around 25%.

Lisa Beres

You just get a test at your doctor to find out?

Michael Rubino

You can actually get tested to see if you're a carrier of that gene. Okay, what happens, the real problem with that gene, and the carriers of it is they don't methylate the way that everybody does. So, they picture their body being like a balloon, and the toxicity fills up inside this balloon, and it doesn't deflate the way everybody else normally does. Like we have our liver, right, we detoxify. So, they have an issue detoxifying. That's what really makes them so much more susceptible to environmentally acquired illness. That's why you'll notice if you talk to a family, you'll have maybe one person experiencing something the other three people are not right. It's because that person either is a carrier, or they have other sort of autoimmune disease, autoimmune disorder, Lyme, some sort of CO infection, literally weaken their immune system. So that something and it doesn't have to be mold, right? It can be VOC�s, formaldehyde. Anything that can enter the body and overload from a particle standpoint is going to make them have certain reactions.

Lisa Beres

Right. That's a good point. Yeah, we are not all created equal. We all have a different body burden, a toxic body burden when I got sick from toxins in my home, newly remodeled home, which wasn't mold. Everybody always asked wasn't mold. That's the first thing. They think you can only get sick from mold, guys. No, there's like hundreds, the average home has four to 500 toxic chemicals in it. There are so many chemicals making us sick. But I was living and working in the house and I got really sick and Ron, we were engaged at the time, you didn't get sick. You weren't there as much as me. But my body burden was obviously higher than Ron's at that point. And I had all kinds of crazy symptoms that he didn't and so I had to clean up my environment. And we're talking about getting to the root of the problem guys. It's not just about oh, I take this pill and now I feel that so I guess everything's fine. No, no, we want to eliminate these things at the source.

Ron Beres

Michael, do you have any tips or tricks outside of preventing moisture or a really good trick with preventing moisture in your home so it doesn't feed the mold source? Or how can we make sure we're protected from excess mold growth or any advice?

Michael Rubino

Yeah, actually, do you mind if I ask you one quick question though? First, there's something that was raising a red flag for me because I have to ask Ron, personal question here when she was going through these challenges, how long did it take you for you to realize that it could be the environment?

Ron Beres

That was a great question. And thanks for throwing it back at me. So back then in the day, that was a transformational moment for me, right? Because I came from corporate America, I was really kind of blind to anything outside of going to work. And it was foreign to me. So, I didn't understand why she was sick. But I certainly trusted her that she didn't feel good. And I went with her on this journey, where she visited over 12 different doctors, and they were trying to identify what was going on. And we came to the conclusion, ultimately, it was the home. And it wasn't like this lightbulb instantly. I believed it. I experienced it. And it transformed it for me.

Lisa Beres

And I know that's probably what you're getting at my book is this. I know this is common, where a lot of the husbands I say husbands because I think the women tend to be more maybe vocal about it, or maybe even sometimes get the effects first. And the husbands are like, yeah, okay, yeah, I don't know about that. And that kind of was our experience. He did Trust me. But we became Building Biologists. And my process of healing was also my process of learning and educating. And it was actually during then when Ron started having lightbulb moments going, gosh, this stuff really is real. This stuff is documented, this stuff scientific, this is connected to our health. And I think that's when you really had your lightbulb moment. In fact, we did a show for the doctors some years ago, and the family was all sick. But the mother had written into the show and said, Hey, people think I'm crazy. My husband thinks I'm crazy. And my friends and family are starting to think I'm crazy, because she was having depression, all kinds of sinus issues, the kids were having chronic coughing, and everybody was sick in the house. But she was really extreme, and it was affecting her emotionally. And we came in to test and we found a little tiny moisture area near the washer. The visible side, there was really not much. I mean, you could see a little bit of mold, but it really was small. We did a test of that and some airborne tests. And it turned out to be stachybotrys, which is for those listeners, it's the quote unquote, black mold. They call it stachybotrys, and it had infiltrated their entire house, which I'm sure you've seen so many times, the entire under the floorboards behind the kitchen cabinets, this family didn't even know. And so, it was really emotional. I mean, they were crying when they found out the results. The lab said we've never seen a level this high ever. It was really cool because the show actually paid for the remediation of this family because they had to immediately move out of the house. Right? Once they found out and then the show remediated it now, I don't know who they use Michael and I were just hoping.

Michael Rubino

No, I asked that. Because I mean, it's such a powerful moment, right? I had to take the opportunity to just talk about that. Because, like I talked to a lot of people every day going through this, it doesn't always have to be the husband. But I would say more often than not, it's the husband that's in denial about is it really the house? Um, a guy, right? We're programmed to second guess everything before we finally come to the conclusion, right? How many times we avoid getting directions, because we're like, I have this map. I figured it out before like, Oh, no, I'm lost, right? It's typically that, but I've seen where the wives are, where the husband's sick and the reverse factor where the wife is like you do, we really need to spend this money, right? The thing about improving your home, right? It's just whether you're remodeling your kitchen, whether you're improving your air quality, there's a cost that you have to spend to fix things right. And so, it's natural to second guess. But I think like I'm a big proponent of listening to your body, and really letting your body identify what's going on and kind of connecting those dots. It's always really powerful. Whenever I have the opportunity to point something out. It's like, hey, look, it's not abnormal, to think that maybe it's something else. And I want to check every other possibility before looking at your home because guess what, as a society, we come from this area where like mold, it's like, throw bleach on it, paint over it, right? We never really looked at the health effects of our air quality. We're just really now starting to get into that. There's a lot more functional medicine doctors these days talking about air quality, and it's still at the infancy stage.

Lisa Beres

It's weird. Yeah, it is. It's crazy. And I think the building envelope plays a big part in that too. As Bell biologists we get into that the way homes are built today is causing a lot of the moisture issues. But Michael we have a caller would you be open to taking a call from a caller?

Michael Rubino

Absolutely.

Lisa Beres

Okay, Chris, you're on the line. Kris from Torrance, California. Do you have a question for Michael? And welcome to the show, by the way, Kris.

Caller, Kris

Thank you so much. Hi, Michael, how you doing? So, my question is, how would I know if I have mold? Like what are some of the symptoms and maybe ranging from minor to more major symptoms?

Michael Rubino

I would say probably the number one symptom that I hear about a lot is going to be brain fog. The second symptom would probably be chronic fatigue. And then you're going to have your more respiratory allergy like symptoms that are pretty common, like you said earlier, on the call, it�s kind of like a NyQuil commercial, right? But those skin issues, brain degenerative disorder, respiratory asthma, like symptoms, anything like that, that could be pointed to mold. But like I said, I don't know if the listeners had a chance to listen before the call. But basically, what I would recommend as a good starting point for seeing if mold is in your home is, I would do an ERMI sample. Are you familiar with that? sample? Yeah. ERMI?

Caller, Kris.

Oh, no, I have not how do you do that?

Michael Rubino

Okay, so it's a great question, you're definitely going to need Google. But you're going to want to Google ERMI. And is probably type in your zip code. And I'm sure you're going to find an opportunity that if somebody that can do that test for you, that's local to you, that's really going to tell you it's what it does, it tests the dust to see what's going on in the environment. And that'll kind of tell you if you need to go further with evaluations or if things look pretty good. And there's really nothing there. Another really cool free tip. If you go over to your toilet, and you take off the lid and you flip it over. If you see mold growing on the underside of the toilet tank cover, or if you peek into the tank itself, and you see mold growing in there. What it usually means is that there's enough mold in the air that has opportunistically getting inside that tank and starting to grow in the water.

Lisa Beres

Oh, well, that's a great tip. Yeah, and, and then clean the toilet while you're there.

Caller, Kris

Wow, that you're freaking me out. I'm going to go check my toilet. Michael, can I ask one more question? Obviously, I think like they have a dog or cat they're going to be very susceptible to and maybe even more sensitive. Do you have any people telling stories about their pets and mold?

Michael Rubino

Yeah, unfortunately, I've heard it all. I've actually unfortunately had received news of pets passing away after getting really sick and passing away like right after they moved into a specific place that happened to be water damage. And they never connected the dots until it was months and months later. So, by the time they realized they needed to do something about it, it was far too late. And so yeah, I mean, pets. Also, they breathe air, right? They have the same effects that we have. So, we have to make sure that our places are clean for our pets too.

Lisa Beres

Yeah, that's a great point. Oh, my gosh, Kris, you�ve got your homework laid out for you now.

Caller, Kris

Right now, this would be like, you want to hold on? Like, give me 10 seconds. I'm going to look at it. And I'll tell you what I see.

Ron Beres

Yeah, go look. We promise not to judge you.

Lisa Beres

Yeah, we want to this is a judgment free toilet zone. Michael, the ERMI test. Can you get that in a Home Depot, a home improvement store?

Michael Rubino

Unfortunately, not. It's definitely not in the mainstream, as I would call it. It's more of a specialized test that uses MSQPCR technology developed by the EPA, this scoring methodology is something that I wouldn't obsess over because it's a bit complex. But the data like when you actually look at what molds are present, and how much is there, that's really useful, because you see some things off the charts, you're going to really be a good indication that there's something going on there.

Ron Beres

It's a professional test, basically, what's the price point typically for?

Michael Rubino

I think they're $495 or something like that. I mean, I'm not the cheapest thing in the world.

Lisa Beres

Yeah. but it's still cheaper than having a mold inspector come out. definitely cheaper than having a mold inspector.

Michael Rubino

If it saves you that part, and you don't need to based upon the results, great. Yeah, you know, but I guess looking at the cost of our health, right, like having to go to doctor to doctor and be sick and right. It's better to be proactive than reactive in that regard.

Ron Beres

Yeah, that $495 would you be taking multiple air samples and compare it to the outside air?

Lisa Beres

It's just the dust.

Ron Beres

ERMI and it would that just be one sample that you're taking?

Michael Rubino

It's the most expensive test out there, of course.

Lisa Beres

Yeah, but you would take it in like a heavily used area, right, like your living room, couch or carpet or something?

Michael Rubino

Yeah, it's just, it's really the best entry point. Because when you start talking air samples and swab samples, tape lifts that requires the professional to know where to take those samples, right? ERMI, you can use it, there's two ways to do it, you can get like a Swiffer cloth with it, and you can go ahead and swab like shelves or baseboards, where dust accumulates, or you can get the vacuum one. Either way, it's still going to give you a good view of what's going on in your home. And I think even though it's more expensive, it's probably the cheaper in the long run. Just to understand if there is a problem, or not a problem.

Lisa Beres

Yeah. And is that coming from a certified accredited laboratory? The results? It does? Yeah. Okay. Excellent. Very listeners, make sure whatever tests you do that it's coming from an accredited lab, not Bob in his basement. Bob�s basement laboratory.

Ron Beres

Which I feel like Kris discovered mold.

Lisa Beres

Kris, are you there?

Caller, Kris

I'm here, I didn't want interrupt. The good news is there�s no mold. In fact, it looks really clean.

Ron Beres

Kris, do you have more than one toilet?

Caller, Kris

I live in apartment. I just have one bathroom. But I will tell you like five years ago, they apartment down below me. I live in a duplex keep it kept moving in and out in and out in and out. And every time somebody moves out like every six months, they would tear everything in there. I finally asked the maintenance as to what's going on. They said Oh, there's water and there's mold. And we can't figure out where it's coming from. Oh, wow. So, they finally Yeah, after and no wonder people are moving out. Right? Because count was crap. And they found out is that we have a swimming pool right in the middle of our apartment building. And one of the pipes was cracked and it went underneath that apartment building. So, I went to what I call the summer of Hall care. They had the whole pool and all the pipes and it was like, it went on for three months. The whole apartment, the pipes, the pool, it was like a construction Warzone. But they finally fixed it. But yeah, I mean, water can leak in from anywhere. And it can be really devastating if a place gets mold.

Ron Beres

The good news is your toilet is clean now.

Unknown Speaker

Thank you for sharing that. Well, thank you for sharing your story. Yeah, we appreciate it. Well, have a great day. Thanks for calling.

Caller, Kris

Thanks. Thanks a lot. Thank you, Michael.

Michael Rubino

You're very welcome.

Lisa Beres

Bye. Michael, I wanted to touch upon you mentioned brain fog. And what was the second thing you said was the most common chronic fatigue chronic fatigue. I mean, this is so many people today that have both of those. So obviously, those are linked to other things as well. But you're going to be getting a lot of phone calls.

Michael Rubino

So, I journal every time I speak to probably three to five people a day. And I journal kind of what they're going through you I'm going to read some of them. Yeah, that would be amazing. All right, it's going to be touchy. So, living in Bay Area three kids healthy most of my life moved into a new beautiful rental daughter had hair loss. She got tested for low iron started taking our supplements but still losing hair. Nine months after that. She started losing her hair. Again, doctor says low iron they start taking iron supplements. Iron comes up but hair loss still happening. Six months after that third daughter has hair loss, then blurred vision for three weeks. son had 30 days of strep throat. daughter had eye floaters. That's about the point where she realized it was environmental. That's one monologue here.

Lisa Beres

Yeah. And it's like a circus for these people trying to pinpoint it, right? What the problem is and spending, imagine how much money they had to spend on all that, let alone the stress.

Michael Rubino

Yeah, that was one we have another one. I found out that I had mold on us about two years ago different house started with thyroid and bad fatigue. recently had a baby which already three years old, traumatic pregnancy Lyman mold, chemical sensitivities, severe gut issues. She had to lay on the floor to eat certain foods but couldn't pinpoint which foods numbness and tingling in the lower limbs and the fatigue is the worst. There are days I don't even want to get out of bed. Finally went to a functional medicine doctor discovered that I had mold did one army test with that place she was about to move. So, she didn't do anything with that data she found in the army but then she bought a friend's house. Again a friend had weird symptoms but the home was tested for mold and didn't find anything so she trusts The process then finally, about a month after moving in her blood work started to go up, numbers started to go up, she started feeling sick, again, very overwhelmed, two year old with special needs paying for that. And this is just too much. When I get these types of stories, it's just like, it's heartbreaking, right? And how can I help? When they hang up with me? They feel comforted, right? Because they feel like, Okay, this guy finally gets it, there's a solution to the problem. And we're going to put a plan together, and we're going to tackle it. Because there's so many people across the country in my profession that don't know how to help someone like that, they're going to be like, Oh, that's out of my wheelhouse. That's kind of the problem is like, there's really no standards to this, we had to really create our own, we had to figure this out. And it's really just because I got obsessed with it, you know, talking to people like that, who really need help, and realizing there's no one out there that could really help them to the level of detail that they need. And that's really what just got me really excited about my journey.

Lisa Beres

Wow, well, that's your calling. My friend says let your pain be your passion. We all kind of fall into our life's work through very easily things that affected us personally, that get us motivated and inspired to help others. We don't want people to go through the things that we've gone through or witnessed. So, kudos to you, Michael, for doing this. It's so important. And for really helping these families with a plan that isn't going to cause them more toxic exposure, like the bleach that we talked about. And what do you use when you're cleaning the mold is it's a nontoxic type of solution or just soapy water. I think even the EPA says hot soapy water, right?

Michael Rubino

We use hot soapy water as part of our protocol used to be water hydrogen peroxide, just again, let the situation dictating itself, our secret weapon is benefit, the con 30. The botanical products, we don't use any chemicals, all the paint based products we use for proving this base, whether it's a water blocking primer, or an encapsulant, that has antimicrobial added to it with all low VOC or zero VOC nontoxic, we basically believe in a whole holistic approach, improving the conditions, there's a partnership we had formed with Intel appear to put like whole home air purification systems into central air h back units, that can actually filter out as particles as small as seven nanometers, roughly about 100 times smaller than mold. And so, the key is h vac systems become contaminated because the spores get to the coil where it's constantly compensating, providing that environment for it to grow and it starts to grow. So, we can stop those spores from getting to the unit and it's not being circulated around your house, it's getting trapped in the filter. And B it's not able to contaminate the H back. So, these are the types of solutions we're looking for. We want to be able to fix the problem once and for all.

Lisa Beres

I love that get to the root. And for listeners who are like, oh, hey, I'd love a whole house air purification system, but that is not in the budget. There are portable air purifiers, right. And I have tested many of them and recommend we actually, if you join our program, the healthy babies Academy, here's my little plug, we actually give you the list of our top 10 recommendations for air purifiers because they run the gamut. And there are definitely some you want to avoid. You get what you pay for with a lot of these. But there are specific things that you need to look for components of an air purifier to address gases, and biological contaminants and chemical contaminants and all of that. So, it's such an investment in your health. When Ron and I were engaged. It was my birthday and he was like, what do you want? I'm guessing you�d want earrings? I said nope, an air purifier. That was like the first present. I think it was quirky. No, but it's true. It's a gift. It's a gift for yourself, it's a gift for your loved ones, you talk about pets with our caller. It�s cleaning the air for them, too. So, you guys, you can get these for a couple 100 dollars all the way up to over 1000 dollars depending on what you want. So absolutely. Don't let the budget distract you. If you're listening to this, there are so many things you can do without spending an arm and a leg.

Ron Beres

Michael, I was curious. So sometimes you probably come across situations where a particular client can't remediate the property because maybe they're renting or they don't have the budget. In that situation. What would you recommend to them to minimize the impact that mold can have on them if they have an issue?

Michael Rubino

Well, you mentioned one of those things air purifiers, right? It's difficult because you have this mold that's actively producing contamination, and the air purifier is going to be actively removing that contamination. So, letting it fill up like a balloon with toxicity is definitely not the answer. air purification is definitely going to be a big proponent to that. And then cleaning like very strict cleaning regimens. Removing the dust is going to remove the mold with it. So, you've just got to stay on top of cleaning, stay on top of air purification. Obviously, you can do something like an ERMI and bring it to the landlord and say, hey, look, there's a problem here. I think we've all been there where that's Kind of a slippery slope and a tough road to go through. But some landlords are better than others, I have a couple that I work with that are really great that believe in doing the right thing. And so, I think that's a good testament to if you have a bad landlord, maybe you try to get out of there in a better way. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, just, we get it, you know, sometimes remediation just isn't feasible. I mean, I've talked to people who are like, Look, I can't afford all this, what do I do, right? And it's like, well, stay on top of this, and try to look for alternative living options. Now some places, right, they're going to have worse problems than others, right. And so, for one house to remediate, maybe extremely different cost wise from another house. So, it's important to take that into consideration so that when you're making any investment towards improving your house for your health reasons, you want to make sure that you have the right place that you're making that investment with.

Lisa Beres

What percentage of insurance companies will cover that? Would you say? I know, it depends on your policy, but a lot of places won't even insure. Right? They won�t insure for mold?

Michael Rubino

Yes. I mean, this is like, another heart wrenching thing for me, the insurance industry, when you call and get insurance, most people they just say, Hey, I just want insurance. I just bought this house, right. And they're not sitting there telling you Well, do you want to have mold coverage? And you want to up your mold coverage? Yeah, just like, okay, you get what you get, right? And so most people, they either get no mold coverage, or they get like a $10,000 dollar cap. And then when you need it, it's like, there's also stipulations to that, like if your appliance hose leeks, they'll cover it. If it�s the part on the appliance itself leak, they won't cover it. Right? So, there's all these like, yeah, look, it's designed for them to make money for them to pay as little as possible. So, here's where I think we can change the insurance industry. What if just saying, when you buy a house, you get like a new homeowner�s packet from your insurance company that tells you basically how you maintain a home, right. And we save money by educating people on how to maintain their home properly, things to inspect for buying Leak Detection kits, all that stuff, right. And then they would save so much money on the front end, that they wouldn't need to cut the rug out from under people on the back end when they actually need it. And I think that's what I think, really, we could be doing better as a society, I get it. There has to be money there to cover claims. But there's got to be a better way. Right? I would say if you're listening to this now call your insurance company, whatever your mold coverages just put it up to the max, because you'd rather need it and not have it then have it and not need it. Yeah, that's really like a key.

Lisa Beres

Can you tell us what the most expensive remediation project you've encountered? Like how high can this get? I mean, I know it depends on square footage, but like, what's something really extravagant.

Michael Rubino

So, I did one of the owners of the Yankees and their attic, and it was $350,000 to remediate their attic. Their attic was just insanely big, right? So, it took three months� worth of remediation work to get it done. That's obviously like the extreme spectrum, right? Yes. Right. I would say the average project probably cost around $50,000. Oh, wow. So, it's not cheap, right? Because it's not, again, we're doing three parts, right, you have the removing of the mold, which that's probably the cheapest part of it, then you have basically the fixing of the conditions of the home that fixes the opportunity for mold to grow in the first place. That's where things start to get a little pricier because now, you're doing like actual contracting work, right. And then it's cleaning up the home, which again, not a crazy expensive part of it. But nonetheless, this is all kind of adds up and makes it costly. If you have a $10,000 claim $10,000 max, and you want it done right? Odds are, you're going to have to pay out of pocket that 40 grand because I'll tell you, the insurance company is not paying for upgrades and they are not paying for your house to be cleaned. They operate off of the guidance, right of our archaic protocols that they just remove the law. That's it, we're not dealing with the other stuff.

Lisa Beres

Right, right. That puts in perspective, you know, you were talking about when that'd be cool if we got a packet when we moved into a home that educated us more purchased a home. And it's interesting because we will spend money on those beautiful kitchen counters, upgrading to the hard surfaces, granite and marble and all of that. And people put a lot of this stuff on the backburner, like, out of sight out of mind. I don't need that right now. And so, I love how you said knowledge we have to be educated on this. And speaking of being educated. Michael is the author of a book called The mold medic, an experts guide on mold removal, and you can purchase that and learn more at the mold medic comm You can also find Michael on Instagram at the mold medic and if you need to professional assistance today head to his website at all American restoration.com. That's all American Restoration dot com. And we will have this in the show notes. But Michael, thank you so much for being with us today and sharing this information widely.

Ron Beres

I guarantee you have our producer�s ear right now because he just he just bought a house. He�s probably talking with the insurance company right now.

Michael Rubino

Everyone needs to pick up that phone and call them right now.

Lisa Beres

And he's got an attic you can assess and that's rare for Southern California where we all are. So yeah, he just gave us a clap.

Ron Beres

And just remind everyone, all of these links will be in the show notes at www.RonandLisa.com/Podcast. And until we meet again, beautiful friends, stay safe and stay healthy. Bye, everyone. Take care. Bye, Michael.

Michael Rubino

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Bye, everybody.

Narrator

This episode of the healthy home hacks podcast has ended. But be sure to subscribe for more healthy living strategies and tactics to help you create the healthy home you always dreamed up. And don't forget to rate and review so we can continue to bring you the best content. See you on the next episode.